Subject: Re: [RAI] [Sipping] Expert review of draft-sinnreich-sip-tools-03

From: Henry Sinnreich <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:32:19 -0500

The issue was about endpoints calling an emergency service.

Are you suggesting some service providers will block emergency calls from a
registered endpoint?

This is a different issue of what providers allow what fixed and mobile
devices on their networks.

Henry

On 10/21/08 1:22 PM, "Paul Kyzivat" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> [I accidentally sent this to rai. trying again on the new thread.]
> 
> Eunsoo Shim wrote:
> 
>>>> I don't see a reason emergency calls cannot be supported with
>>>> the tools listed in the document.
>>>> 
>>> Which VOIP service providers, and by what mechanism.
>> 
>> Vonage and Comcast. I am sure there are more.
>> By the mechanism I described briefly in the above.
> 
> Hmm. Are you then saying that these tools are sufficient to develop a UA
> for attachment to Vonage and Comcast? I never would have gotten that
> from reading it.
> 
> And I'm surprised. AFAIK neither Vonage nor Comcast support attachment
> of third party sip devices to their networks - only the ones they
> supply. (Or am I out of date regarding their policies?)
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul
> 
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---

From: Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:55:43 -0400

> Are you suggesting some service providers will block emergency calls from a

I'm saying AFAIK they don't support any endpoints other than those they 
sanction registering in the first place. Maybe you can fake them into 
believing your device is legit, but probably they are trying to prevent 
you from that.

In case of Comcast, I'm assuming you mean Comcast voice service. 
Actually, I believe that isn't even SIP - its MGCP for the phones. Or if 
you mean the comcast network service, then I don't think it will provide 
any sip emergency services.

	Thanks,
	Paul

---

From: Henry Sinnreich <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:08:40 -0500

Paul,

I did not intend to go there, but since you bring it up, there are press
reports about Sprint and others preparing for an open wireless network and
Verizon opening their wireless network to large degree to various mobile
devices. (AT&T seems to be pretty open to my iPhone). I don't think this is
the place to discuss policies of specific service providers, just to make
the point they cannot be put all in the box of closed networks that exclude
innovative endpoints; for sure.

In the enterprise and most of all, on the Internet, there is also ample room
for endpoint features and services. In P2P SIP networks all features are in
the endpoints...

To make it clear: Our I-D does not exclude or even comment on network based
SIP services, but only shows the alternative of providing _rich_ services in
the endpoints as well, or even better in our opinion.

This is a good point probably to state explicitly in the I-D and thanks for
leading us to it.

Henry

---

From: Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:30:12 -0400

Henry,

Based on this discussion, it now sounds like you are heading in *two* 
directions:

- connecting to a SP that provides services (e.g. 911, maybe others,
   like voicemail, forwarding, ...)
   The SP in this case is largely looking for a "dumb" device and
   provides the services in the network. The "request for service"
   is then "tunneled" via simple services like invite, with the
   service request encoded in the AOR. (e.g. the "911", or "star" codes).
   In this case you are then competing with other profiles, such as
   SIPConnect or PacketCable.

- very low added value SP, that simple provides registration
   and routing. All services are provided by the UAs.

I'd like to see the goals spelled out better. Then we can discuss if 
they are met.

	Thanks,
	Paul

---

From: Henry Sinnreich <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:44:41 -0500

Thanks Paul!

> I'd like to see the goals spelled out better. Then we can discuss if

This looks reasonable.

>   and routing. All services are provided by the UAs.

More accurately: The richest applications in the opinion of the authors,
combined with RIA, etc. can be provided in the endpoints as an interesting
alternative for service providers. There is no reason why SIP endpoints
cannot also be designed to interact with existing VoIP infrastructure, but
this is beyond the scope of our I-D.

Thanks for helping to clear this up as well.

Henry