Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 134: Re: How can this process be changed?

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 13:30:45 +0100

We didn't quite close on this issue.  There are three candidates:

Mark's text:

> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced 
> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon 
> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this does 
> not preclude such changes from being defined outside this process, so 
> long as the same agreement is found.

Mark's 2nd sentence provides a backstop to address any process failures 
that could happen either in the RSWG or RSAB.  This specifically 
addresses an issue that Mike raised at one point.

Mirja's text:

> "Updates, amendments and refinements of this document require 
> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC."

And Brian's text:

> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced 
> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon 
> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC
> with regard to matters falling under their respective remits.

Brian's text came about as part of a discussion as to whether the LLC 
should have an approval role here.

I am a little unsure as to how that would be implemented.   How would 
you as an IAB/IESG/LLC member interpret that sentence? Could a NO vote 
be appealable as to whether something is outside a remit of an org?  How 
about a YES vote?  Could that be appealable?  And how would one know why 
someone is voting as they do?

It may be helpful to restate Brian's text as follows:

> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced 
> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon 
> agreement of the IAB and the IESG, and with no objections from the LLC 
> with regard to their ability to implement any proposed change.

The analogy here might be that of an IANA considerations section, where 
IANA reviews and clears a document.

?

Eliot

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:03:41 +1300

Comment below...

>> with regard to their ability to implement any proposed change.

Yes, that scopes it correctly. For example, if a change unintentionally
required the LLC or its contractor to break GDPR or any other law, or
overspend its budget, this would catch it.

    Brian

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From: Peter Saint-Andre <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:48:21 -0700

> overspend its budget, this would catch it.

WFM.

Peter

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From: Peter Saint-Andre <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:06:19 -0700

>> overspend its budget, this would catch it.

Here's the same concept with some slight editorial tweaks:

Updates, amendments, and refinements to this document can be produced
using the process documented herein, but shall be operative only after
(a) obtaining the agreement of the IAB and the IESG, and (b) ensuring
that the IETF LLC has no objections regarding its ability to implement
any proposed changes.

Peter