Subject: [Rserpool] Full minutest of 51st IETF Rserpool meeting

From: "Stillman Maureen (NVO-NIC/Ithaca)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:07:59 -0500

As always, send any comments to the list.

-- maureen

Minutes of Reliable Server Pooling WG, Monday August 6, 2001 
IETF 51 
Co-Chairs: Lyndon Ong ([email-masked]) 
Maureen Stillman ([email-masked]) 

54 people attended this meeting.

Agenda: 

1) Status of the Proposed Informational RFC on Requirements for Reliable

Server Pooling 

2) Open Issues on WG ASAP and ENRP docs 

Speakers: Randy Stewart, Qiaobing Xie 
draft-ietf-rserpool-asap-00.txt 
draft-ietf-rserpool-enrp-00.txt 

3) Candidate ENRP and ASAP 

Speaker: Ram Gopal 
draft-gopal-asap-candidate-00.txt 
draft-gopal-enrp-candidate-00.txt 
Comparison with requirements and with WG items ASAP and ENRP. 

4) Comments on comparison draft 

Speaker: John Loughney 
draft-ietf-reserpool-comp-01.txt 

5) RSERPOOL naming and selection functional support using SLP 

Speaker: Erik Guttman 

6) General Discussion 

7) Next Steps 

Summary of Agenda Items 

1) Status of the Proposed Informational RFC on Requirements for Reliable

Server Pooling 

Currently the requirements document is on track for approval as an 
informational RFC.  The IESG will review this document shortly.  

2) Open Issues on WG ASAP and ENRP docs 

ASAP: 

Randy Stewart presented open issues and changes to ASAP.  Changes agreed

upon will be documented in the next version of the Internet draft.  
1) The message format should be changed to TLV.  
2) The ENRP server discovery needs work to add manual, mcast channel, 
and DNS alternatives. 
3) Load balancing needs work. 
4) We discussed the  "business card" idea - exchange pool handle of PU 
but concerns were expressed about security and transparency issues.  The

conclusion was that this is better handled at the application layer. 
5) Do we have any structure to names?  Can they indicate more than the 
service, i.e., characteristics desired?  Should session layer provide 
more complex semantics?  Conclusion: we can add this later it currently 
is not a priority.  Also, PEs should be identical for failover purposes.

6) The subject of the transport protocol for Rserpool has come up 
several times.  TCP vs. SCTP - do the A-Ds have a preference for us to 
choose one?  Scott indicated that this is not a requirement.  We should 
consider the flexibility vs. the additional complexity.  It may be 
desirable to consider PU-PE separately from PU-ENRP and PE-ENRP, since 
the transport usage is different.  It was pointed out that SCTP would 
logically be used for interchange with the ENRP server, but that there 
might be other types of traffic between PU and PE, such as for example 
real-time traffic that would use RTP/UDP.  PU-PE is more 
application-dependent. 
7) Server discovery issues - There was a discussion of use of well-known

channel, concerns with scalability.  There is good reason to look at 
existing alternatives such as DNS and SLP for this, as they have already

figured out many of the issues. 
8) Security remains a difficult issue.  Options include TLS and HIP. 
Security and failover is a big problem.  Questions concerning whether we

are the group with the right expertise to address this. Problems involve

state transfer, esp. if you consider mechanisms like cipher block 
chaining.   We agreed to form a small design team to put together a 
description of the security problems introduced by Rserpool and 
recommendations on how to address them and what is in Rserpool scope. 
This group should include lower level issues in their discussion, such 
as hijack of IP address. 

ENRP: 

Qiaobing Xie presented open issues and changes to ENRP.  Changes agreed 
upon will be documented in the next version of the Internet draft.  
1) Peer discovery - how do you discover other ENRP servers when you come

up as an ENRP server?  Two possible solutions are to use SLP or DNS 
mechanisms. 
2) Synchronization of name space - do we need an audit mechanism?  How 
closely do we need to synchronize name server information?  The current 
assumption based on prototyping is one minute. 
The soft state as used in SLP might be helpful - this allows the server 
to specify a refresh interval so that if the server is congested it can 
space out refresh requests at longer intervals.  This solution is 
scalable. 
3) Load balancing - current mechanism is extremely simple and robust - 
choose the server that responds fastest.  This server will be either 
geographically closest or further but less loaded, so you choose what is

most efficient in general, also this does not require complex processing

under heavy load. 

3) Candidate ENRP and ASAP 
Ram Gopal spoke on candidate ENRP and ASAP and compared them with the 
current WG drafts and identified some open issues. 

1) Startup should not be multicast-dependent.  The C-draft also proposes

a method of load balancing ENRP servers. 
  PE registration with ENRP server  - questions on scalability, 
algorithm 
2) Server unreliability is an issue.  Server information may be 
inconsistent due to network access problems; can you trust the 
information at the "home" server?  The proposal is to distribute 
information across all ENRP servers 
3) Heartbeat - security and authorization issues. 
4) Auto-deregistration -- Propose that PE should state lifetime when it 
registers. 
5) Security -  Propose that endpoint name should be encrypted 
6) PU-PE authentication - should it be required? 

Some comments: Subgroups are a bad idea; we should create separate pools

instead. Authorization is in question - is it needed?  The current ENRP 
load balancing algorithm is in some sense self-regulating, i.e., there 
is no advantage to violating it - you will go to a more congested or 
distant PE.  ENRP server selection gives you the "best" server for your 
purposes. 

7) ASCII vs. binary message format - advantages to ASCII - SIP? 
Disadvantages - efficiency of storage and conversion, e.g., 500 servers 
with redundancy = 1000 addresses needing to be passed. 
8) Load balancing - use of contexts - questions on whether this is a 
problem 
9) Proxy PE - how are proxies handled in the Rserpool architecture? 
9) Alternative transport protocols - more debate on the transport 
protocol 

4) Comments on comparison draft 

John Loughney discussed comparison draft. 

He has updated DNS text and needs to update SLP with Erik's help.  Is 
the document sufficient, or do we need to consider others?  Some 
suggestions that we should include comparison of ENRP and ASAP with 
others, however as works in progress these drafts are a moving target. 
  
5) RSERPOOL naming and selection functional support using SLP 

Erik is willing to help with analysis and possible extension of SLP in 
support of Rserpool.  SLP has some deficiencies in security, as it tends

to be very open 
He suggests mapping a name to more than just to an endpoint, but to also

include characteristics of that endpoint. 

In SLP multicast is not the only mechanism for finding a DA (directory 
agent = ENRP server), but also allows use of configured addresses.  Erik

proposed exploring an ENRP-SLP mapping which he has already started to 
work on.  In contrast to ENRP, Erik suggests that a "home" server not 
needed.  It can be distributed using a mesh mechanism (see reference 
below).  Qiaobing's comment was that "home" idea in ENRP is for 
efficiency.  The SLP mesh document entitled "mSLP - Mesh enhanced 
service location protocol" is draft-zhao-slp-da-interaction-12.txt  

SLP v2 is the current RFC.   This RFC requires user agent applications 
to poll the network to determine if a service appears or disappears. 
Notification and subscription for SLP (experimental) extensions - 
experimental because of lack of real (vs. lab) implementation - 
addresses this issue.  The notification/subscription function is 
documented in an experimental RFC 3082 entitled "notification and 
subscription in SLP". 

We need to consider service agent (SA) fault tolerance in SLP.  How easy

is it to extend SLP? Can SLP be used to do ENRP server discovery? 
Support of real-time failover is required for PE discovery.  This is not

currently possible through SLP and may be out of its scope. 

6) General Discussion 

Major security issues were raised during the WG discussions.   The area 
director reminded the group of the new encryption directive from the 
IESG.  The directive is outlined in the Internet draft 
draft-ietf-saag-whyenc-00.txt. 

7) Next Steps 

Further discussion of the new technical ideas for the protocol will be 
continued on the list.  A design team to discuss security issues is 
being formed.  The group will formulate the problem and scope of the 
working group effort and present this to the list for comment.  A 
teleconference will be held after the meeting, to be announced on the 
list.  Everyone is welcome to participate. 

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