Subject: RE: Summary of RE: [Sip] Comment, SIP Privacy draft

From: "Chiou, Mark" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:27:39 -0500

Dean wrote:
#####################################
The point I'm trying to make is that To and From are USER supplied information. The Service Provider doesn't insert them, inspect them, or have any responsibility for them. Insisting that the service provider change them is just like insisting that the service provider change any other user-supplied information, such as the words I'm typing now. Anything I put in my To or from field is deliberately and explicitly intended to be delivered to the terminating side of the dialog, and if as a service provider you FAIL to do that, then you have DAMAGED my data, and my lawyers will be in touch!
 
The calling-party-identity presentation infromation (CLIP or RPID) is NOT inserted by the user. It is inserted by the network, WITHOUT THE CONSENT of the user. As such, the operator is responsible for the protection of that information in a manner consistent with regulation and the expressed wishes of the user.
<snip>
 ##########################################################
No, The CLIP is inserted by the network WITH THE CONSENT of the user. When you subscribe a line from a PSTN service provider, the form you filled indicating whether you want your telephone number to be PUBLIC or PRIVATE. (of course, the default is PUBLIC if you leave it blank.) When you make a call, the PRIVATE or PUBLIC status value is retrieved and set the Address Presentation Restricted Indicator (APRI) field in SS7 environment (Note that, CLIR toggles the values), then the terminating side of the network based on the APRI value to determine whether the Calling Party Number shall be delivered to the callee's CPE.
 
Since we want to push the decision making to the UA, we should standardize the rule such that the UA shall display the From information based on Privacy indication. If we think that too many UAs won't follow this rule, than we should allow the Service Provider of terminating side (not the originating side) to alter the From information before terminating the call to the UA based on the Privacy indication.
 
This is my penny thought,
 
Mark Chiou

---

From: "Ben Campbell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:44:25 -0500

MessageYou pretty much have to assume that the receiving user sees
_anything_ you send his UA, except in the rare case where the user has no
control over the UA behavior. Asking a UAS to hide information from its
owner is not useful in the generic case.

I agree with Dean on this in general, although it really doesn't matter if
any _network_ inserted identification is there with the consent of the
originating user or not. A privacy request need _only_ apply to
network-inserted identification data. The UAC has every opportunity _not_ to
insert identification if it does not want to.

Expecting the network to screen out ID that _I_ provide is a slippery slope.
What if I put "call from Ben" in a Subject header? Do you screen that out as
well? What if I _tell_ the destination user who I am in an IM associated
with the call? What about the media session,?

 -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Chiou, Mark
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:28 AM
To: Dean Willis; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Summary of RE: [Sip] Comment, SIP Privacy draft

  Dean wrote:
  #####################################
  The point I'm trying to make is that To and From are USER supplied
information. The Service Provider doesn't insert them, inspect them, or have
any responsibility for them. Insisting that the service provider change them
is just like insisting that the service provider change any other
user-supplied information, such as the words I'm typing now. Anything I put
in my To or from field is deliberately and explicitly intended to be
delivered to the terminating side of the dialog, and if as a service
provider you FAIL to do that, then you have DAMAGED my data, and my lawyers
will be in touch!

  The calling-party-identity presentation infromation (CLIP or RPID) is NOT
inserted by the user. It is inserted by the network, WITHOUT THE CONSENT of
the user. As such, the operator is responsible for the protection of that
information in a manner consistent with regulation and the expressed wishes
of the user.
  <snip>
   ##########################################################
  No, The CLIP is inserted by the network WITH THE CONSENT of the user. When
you subscribe a line from a PSTN service provider, the form you filled
indicating whether you want your telephone number to be PUBLIC or PRIVATE.
(of course, the default is PUBLIC if you leave it blank.) When you make a
call, the PRIVATE or PUBLIC status value is retrieved and set the Address
Presentation Restricted Indicator (APRI) field in SS7 environment (Note
that, CLIR toggles the values), then the terminating side of the network
based on the APRI value to determine whether the Calling Party Number shall
be delivered to the callee's CPE.

  Since we want to push the decision making to the UA, we should standardize
the rule such that the UA shall display the From information based on
Privacy indication. If we think that too many UAs won't follow this rule,
than we should allow the Service Provider of terminating side (not the
originating side) to alter the From information before terminating the call
to the UA based on the Privacy indication.

  Mark Chiou

---

From: Juha Heinanen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:16:55 +0300

> with the call? What about the media session,?

i don't see any slippery slope here.  if you tell in the data part of
the message or call, who you are, then it is up to you.  the only thing
i care is that if the user in the from header claims to be someone that
someone has to be someone we have agreed for the subscription.

-- juha

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---

From: "Dean Willis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:30:41 -0500

Dean wrote:
---- 
The calling-party-identity presentation infromation (CLIP or RPID) is
NOT inserted by the user. It is inserted by the network, WITHOUT THE
CONSENT of the user. As such, the operator is responsible for the
protection of that information in a manner consistent with regulation
and the expressed wishes of the user. 
----

Mark wrote: 
----
No, The CLIP is inserted by the network WITH THE CONSENT of the user.
When you subscribe a line from a PSTN service provider, the form you
filled indicating whether you want your telephone number to be PUBLIC or
PRIVATE. (of course, the default is PUBLIC if you leave it blank.) When
you make a call, the PRIVATE or PUBLIC status value is retrieved and set
the Address Presentation Restricted Indicator (APRI) field in SS7
environment (Note that, CLIR toggles the values), then the terminating
side of the network based on the APRI value to determine whether the
Calling Party Number shall be delivered to the callee's CPE. 
----

Coercion <=> consent.

There is no explicit consent within the signaling of an invidiual
transaction. External contractual issues are outside of the protocol,
and tend to violate the "openness" characteristic of an Internet
protocol. In otherwises, there's a philosophical difference between an
explicit request from the user that a network providing break privacy
for that transaction, and a network that breaks privacy just because I
didn't tell it NOT to.

Note of course, that we're not talking about PSTN provoders, we're
talking IP to IP usage over the publicaly addressable Internet.

Mark also wrote:
----
Since we want to push the decision making to the UA, we should
standardize the rule such that the UA shall display the From information
based on Privacy indication. If we think that too many UAs won't follow
this rule, than we should allow the Service Provider of terminating side
(not the originating side) to alter the From information before
terminating the call to the UA based on the Privacy indication.
----

Personally, the UA I uset he most writes every last SIP header and the
body to the screen, and copies them all to a log file just in case. One
cannot rely on the called party's software to protect the privacy of the
calling party.

--
Dean

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 08:26:43 +0300

> Calling Party Number shall be delivered to the callee's CPE. 

i don't understand why we would need anything new for this kind of
privacy purpose.

we already have the Anonymous display string.  if th user wants from
privacy, it uses Anonymous display string from which the sip/ss7 gw
knows what to do.  the same to the other direction.

if the call goes to a sip user, then the network MUST rewrite the from
uri and thus implement a b2bua.

-- juha