Subject: [Sipping] RE: draft-stein-great-00.txt

From: "Yaakov Stein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:18:49 +0200

> This document seems to be a reflection of all the sour grapes 
> about the Internet, VoIP, QoS and reliability and makes one 
> wonder how come that so many public VoIP services work well 
> and have an ever growing customer base.

No, it is a reflection of many years of experience in
both traditional telephony and VoIP.

VoIP services work very well over private networks,
but generally work as described over the public Internet.

> 
> No evidence is provided to support any of the statements.
> 

Although obviously the beginning of the draft is descriptive,
but anyone who regularly uses VoIP over the public Internet
will immediately sympathise with the description.

> If the author's intent is to address the facts, a white paper 
> for the marekting department may be the better place for such a memo.

The author has never been in marketing, and doesn't intend 
going over to marketing in the near future. 

The author is involved in DSP and has witnessed the improvement
in subjective quality made possible by relatively straightforward
improvements to VoIP systems. The author has also been trying to get 
the IETF interested in this topic for several years, with little
success.
On the other hand, the author's colleagues in DSP fora are not
sufficiently knowledgeable in the transport aspects of the Internet.

Having a BOF may stimulate interest, or prove that the IETF is
NOT the proper forum to do this work.

Y(J)S

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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:14:34 -0500

>but generally work as described over the public Internet.

I find this statement hard to reconcile with my daily experience using SIP
phones, and other VoIP such as Skype, Google Talk, Damaka, etc. between
Dallas, Boston, Washington, Berlin, Amsterdam and Tokyo over the public
Internet 'as is'. In all such calls, using the GIPS broadband codec (40
kb/s) the quality is clearly superior to the PSTN and the MOS would be
higher than 5.0 if telecom minds could grasp such a wild notion. A good
reminder is also the Internet did not fail, nor any of these services
(including Vonage) during recent diasters - in stark contrast to the "five
nine" legendary telecom networks that all failed for days and weeks.

Maybe your Internet access link is the problem?

As for Dean's comments that Internet communications are different, I would
only add the observation that confirms it: Most decision makers I happen to
know would rather give up the $40k/year office receptionist who uses the
various call transfers mentioned by Dean than give up their $400 (plus usage
fee) Blackberry, even for 15 minutes. Blackberry has the clear win over call
transfer for the decision makers in most well and alive industries. I did
not mean to include legacy telecom though...

> IETF is NOT the proper forum to do this work.

We agree on this.

Thanks, Henry

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of Yaakov Stein
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 2:19 AM
To: Sipping
Subject: [Sipping] RE: draft-stein-great-00.txt

Y(J)S