From nobody Fri Dec 4 03:34:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B48E3A0B5B for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2020 03:34:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zenTBKzNsF8W for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2020 03:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5957E3A0B26 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2020 03:34:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1607081689; bh=J9bxeLTRttZnhdnKDv3VhvP0+VrhvNM4MbaRbJFUcwA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=AJGkQ7Z0dv/If0SaKzE8b7n58gf8F3NqlxGSemsE6qVjfpDY0Z+kwgamTZBafDdfT LdiWlbIO9MwVfK1Eobxf9nY66cLpnYoPxmI+wx/k0f/pS4FSdjVPrElKk93SSp03ZF pyOHJSJkOE/d910UMZZ/YCJaXsAMfo9Eq0nfXcEo= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.51.166]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MCbIn-1kthww1uol-009cmF for ; Fri, 04 Dec 2020 12:34:49 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <21677.1601578356@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <3680dec7-3183-601b-3443-283b8685a976@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 12:34:47 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21677.1601578356@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:qFEWLHbNr7G26U4lPEJ+cFdcnUq8IlCUHHzLj7O7Hm0li+53SdR JCxT2pJtOPYdc0RrUFyg2oyu53w5DAPT2rm4iD5AjBiu4p9iSBZAPZ6+rmFZcU4Lj/6r1ao eY479puJ3s6QuW+ltgkygPd5mhHj7O9OA/DGvoQz1Z9UG/EOTmYn9UKtk6d31IJIoE/cq1K NGNkC4KDe3VdcAMCZ/LkQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:oUGj79hHcZU=:PWj3JxQekSiZrlKXGpopdb xzkJFNKG2bS81UJpFEv8bpy8qGQTBQzAf/XXTv+92nY68NIWiI8uIrTnhnKLkrhbQHtsDvVUX kBlEmAU7TA+/2rxxxZP8HdOY8koQkplAcdIllS044tdejtdW91/mXFTWFt8cNtQ9E8A5I9q/m zPfFmeRLfdDj1/zPO2zR5uIZKv2Cv3cdFLkkL8no5rfdm5q3AbY9/kdHit7EaNrf/CxlKvPzZ gZ2gkS3d1wW5CsfVBRHaja7jDUjn1IXvGvg23tf+X4Yn4LoZsQ1qGtjEc7FzBdU+kRIShcR0S ism5rKSgD16zTY4eLWacCtHksXedkjN/8Mb/EeabvhLAsvX3TQuYKgAAr4bk4a+Xo+UrS/kRK Fj9aG2UNYH/JuLj64xq8L6ptgBfxbSr1opp5Tyt1F/HEUxB4mMatSlK8QcejIYTFP7F1OSmjA iOMkybCcAibG7C4gAHdJlEvPhsHiNiZxP2XAXm14Rke80CjAh/RfkcT7Vm81ynnOwjGti1+MX f2AoD3UN5QwYojvilpKDHdewq1nWvt+UPJFCtBhSjy0pPv6teXz/H2SYIQUHpVK6lNYmXXTT7 WrZHJ8hD1E7XaH/yvFRTUVS+xck5ZF8rUMq2geDFpSbI7jCfOt8nQj/qUkfSYkWW05o7LySDu ngJqJvo8itmu6U+lWJuGKKiMutae60YQ7sP+o1Zt5iOw90rCDdzDqNPQgSumwhHvK6FA76ZeY zGEs3Im79SgfG7SJJ3Xr0okZu5wW50gVwQE5XL3XN7WYx1kVTMRx0GMkpculf1lBJ5D/13244 sk6DkGtZVgMCvkCseJg6yfJHnM8sjrqSTSIvk+wYP1RjH6DTfqkBqZNYbSH8wH5abA+/xLfUA n3N0hw59zEW+IBqX9Itw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DT stats page X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2020 11:34:55 -0000 Am 01.10.2020 um 20:52 schrieb Michael Richardson: > > {new thread} > > Jay Daley wrote: > > - I am still not sure how to point people to their Datatracker st= ats > > page > > I find my own because I've bookmarked it. > I've searched the menus, but never found a link. > > I have no idea how to find yours, except that I know how to spell your n= ame > in the URL. I feel that I should be able to get from a document status = page > to the see a list of authors that leads me to that person's page. > (And then discover all the other good work they have done) Speaking of which, it might be good if authors could put their datatracker URI into their specs. Opened as feature request. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Dec 7 06:02:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6DC3A13E4 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:02:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZFouxpU2xygG for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 330083A13E3 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8607F3899D for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 09:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id u2fo6BGcFXAG for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 09:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC2E3899A for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 09:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC95B48F for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 09:02:41 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] page number-less, section-number-less references to Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 14:02:55 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the great pagination debate, it was asserted that people ought to be writing reviews, and the like against section anchors rather than page numbers, line numbers or maybe even section numbers. Right now, one typically refers to another *RFC* as: section 1.2.3.4 This is tolerable because once published, RFCs can't change so the numbers are stable. I don't think that we ever link directly the section itself. (Or does htmlize do that for us...) In internet-drafts it seems that this is really fragile thing. Particularly among a group of documents that are co-evolving, I've often had to figure out what the section numbers are after a change, and it's not always obvious until some months later when a reviewer is confused. So my questions are: 1) is this something anyone other than me cares about? 2) probably it involves revision to XMLv3 to make this possible, and I assume that is a hard thing still. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl/ONgEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXMlAf6A0T78A6jae0CtTtrvaoeS1bOVDEBt8Eox1JgDIVNGe3qmC67henyyhvb oZruBEQfsfsYMoAZpatjHvBVGIl5+uj9CNKgu1PRgItjKWme2E6M+Ug6VzNl10TD gQQgieZFGTL6FCItCV5USt8whj7tK4iXUBSktrUM8MiH17T2AmAXpt1FZ2QWIVCe ZrQI4HYw1ujUgmW2YTXH19sspr3jWzvFKDKcJ+pd+dIxZQQmglm9RvI5z+CFLHC0 SvbH7mlrhRV8ddRdwxFt4+6e+XXHVN+nYqXwnQZ+YBJrwHGBxWSvxqSyzTBE1QbP WXDwivvdEn/OrgNrCBdt7Zt674xiPw== =fm+r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 06:22:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F823A13EB for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:22:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LjqhsuNlBqj1 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:22:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F7973A13E9 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:22:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1607350953; bh=td4SxyMEuulonmAsr812qAPbXHZLvrjedGapdthk7rc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=IYOUkSTYM1i6lKBgi88Q9GRiZpglnskQOtf9bhuqTMoNlR5i1pZo5laJpJ4ILe/mv 3JvxDfMkKEsHMMhaDj/bOUMTiX//YrUDzBajP6M8MH+yx0keRWjSdobWnXfhdsDA+c Ius4ScwsdvWpJddr6S5Uk27h/3R9swD4ei8AClaM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([5.10.171.186]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N0X8u-1jyya50xam-00wSl0 for ; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 15:22:33 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <24953.1607349761@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 15:22:32 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24953.1607349761@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Vr6XQz/wAMpaw4wqokSmeqUO8H/VSnnU8fJJkoONvc0B8iSVzYk Sx4jK17hzK5rnHBxVDayyW5KUNrf9rDSIOTn4GpO2kYIJHSPgo9aI54Op7ct94OJefN5zDQ UN0Ap5b8V0QRLOwTBtNFHct/diHenN/Lo1xr+ohz2U6fu3PCSU/GadI+/zSz9OCuHphqsal S0nW2H5wjpOLWAP2ynJDw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:/V9n/zmyNHc=:U0tGsv5fRVAl6GqlpIpx0B eO2XlgniJf1JXkHl7ww6ZcoZtT4hMlUPh/Hf2n/PHurcoGAekot3bKqfkKo65sK+YO9faCIc7 FIsvHm5GfgTI3bJWRODhWAs1tqFO5jgJYbcGwWXgGOoV9vlSHA1GH6SPpc//y6EyMDJCoKhlD o7WwzXEC+YoT+5vPtZV+YZa4F1kv7oYZBWUbnBIAhzBAfBANcNVE4dTdSMVR9UlcTzMCVYaOM D0jqkxtSPgZKWVtvLW4+sX2A0zEIEPRhLOC+Ygl+x//1qoEWnwPePVavYSVNB14QIBOFSnLKk nbTbdc9TA7zP0VxBTkhGJWfKoIgrn13YAb8xRbN0uoFWOLQ1XemvtdDcLlbLAdB7jAM7f4v74 LQyZlJvvRqFuOFEdSzpf/UNKLQGV4iap3rXiGhITBhqlPifjbspK4fFJkkAkgzEPmlQ8r7e3H NLCS9dbqbCl9L18nljvuZhfW+STrXNZ4vWJXk3eUwhSyF5zQCmgwYtzLzC919FrAO26KxWnuM z+mDXsDU4wwFArPHpTZWUsJuauPIX2QDwvBGNwH5lLBiN/T3ETYBPBEify4YAFwwSoH4S0zkn EJMWc9izqWopBtyV5mAWhOQIfWWaE5ZnWRWs4baDJ6Zra9ZZUhD63JFt+xULIDI1CQn5DX5LW TI/4QiKLRkMM6/ZtdA77+jS+VPcsbTEwutnHZdd8kKbGNXTMkZpqEi6P+CIvDXiZ0i+opf50a nML77ruV1AUlQT0akOxS//hCYVeNlc0gjmA1XljndPTRW8VVlVzf37Yy31G6D9CwmqjxyGYOd oV/wRcR0ZjDNPsypDsgdmnYxr/6rlq3ndqwOzLEZVSLcuLbLfa+gXkWIN/vCCL+oZcLjqH3Ym FpaHzws821AH2Ph5etqw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] page number-less, section-number-less references to Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 14:22:38 -0000 Am 07.12.2020 um 15:02 schrieb Michael Richardson: > > In the great pagination debate, it was asserted that people ought to be > writing reviews, and the like against section anchors rather than page > numbers, line numbers or maybe even section numbers. > > Right now, one typically refers to another *RFC* as: > section 1.2.3.4 Typically, it should be or which would yield Section 1.2.3.4 of [RFC1234] or [RFC1234], Section 1.2.3.4 And no, this syntax is neither in RFC 7991 nor 7991bis, a proposal is here: > This is tolerable because once published, RFCs can't change so the numbe= rs > are stable. I don't think that we ever link directly the section itself= . > (Or does htmlize do that for us...) Yes it does, so does xml2rfc v3's HTML output. > In internet-drafts it seems that this is really fragile thing. > Particularly among a group of documents that are co-evolving, I've often= had > to figure out what the section numbers are after a change, and it's not > always obvious until some months later when a reviewer is confused. WHich is why I recommend to reference concrete versions, so that the act of updating the reference is something that doesn't happen in an uncontrolled way. > So my questions are: > 1) is this something anyone other than me cares about? Yes. > 2) probably it involves revision to XMLv3 to make this possible, > and I assume that is a hard thing still. The vocabulary itself doesn't help here yet. For specs that co-evolve (such as the three HTTP core specs), I have my own extensions in rfc2629.xslt, so that I can use the section anchors instead of section numbers. This requires a preprocessing step if you want to feed the output into xml2rfc. For other specs (QUIC), I locally run a filter on the XML which embeds section link target metadata (anchor name and section title) as processing instructions, so at least it becomes clear *what* the link target is, and it's easier to track if something changes (if you're interested in this, I can publish it). Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Dec 7 06:25:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344E93A13EB for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:25:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pY3mpnmzwqaD for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A1BA3A13EC for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CqQZn3nTXzyhB; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 15:25:37 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <24953.1607349761@localhost> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 15:25:37 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629043937.021367-0d56bcfedbd51e567cee31bb55124651 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <24953.1607349761@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] page number-less, section-number-less references to Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 14:25:42 -0000 On 2020-12-07, at 15:02, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > 1) is this something anyone other than me cares about? Yes. If you make references to the HTML, these need not have section numbers, = but can be based on the anchor names defined by the author (which now = leak out, which they didn=E2=80=99t before, by the way). So instead of referencing Section 4.7 of draft-ietf-asdf-sdf, just = reference = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-asdf-sdf-01.html#name-data-qual= ities Remaining homework: Get a stable URL for the draft=E2=80=99s HTML, = instead of for a specific version. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Dec 7 08:38:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F94D3A0F0B for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 08:38:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7dTXhGWwcT2z for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 08:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6F643A0FC2 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 08:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CqTXC3H22zyVT; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 17:38:35 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B4842C66-1864-4C93-97A5-30CF36D5529A" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629051914.977416-7148d0ef370e8d3320c2fc8a547f6988 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 17:38:35 +0100 Message-Id: References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 16:38:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B4842C66-1864-4C93-97A5-30CF36D5529A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan = G=C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s name?). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt > Date: 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET > To: > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Archived-At: = > Message-Id: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >=20 >=20 > Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path > Authors : Glyn Normington > Edward Surov > Marko Mikulicic > Fachhochschule Dortmund > Filename : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2020-12-07 --Apple-Mail=_B4842C66-1864-4C93-97A5-30CF36D5529A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 That = didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan = G=C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s name?).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Begin forwarded = message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = I-D Action: = draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Date: = 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET
To: = <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Reply-To: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Archived-At: = <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i-d-announce/L7c7k-dRJ80u= g5CVzfUAu_R3fnQ>
Message-Id: = <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com>


A New Internet-Draft is available from the = on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


       Title =           : JavaScript = Object Notation (JSON) Path
=        Authors =         : Glyn Normington
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;Edward Surov
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;Marko Mikulicic
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;Fachhochschule Dortmund
Filename =        : = draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Pages =           : 21
= Date =            : = 2020-12-07

= --Apple-Mail=_B4842C66-1864-4C93-97A5-30CF36D5529A-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 09:00:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066493A146B for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 09:00:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DPUpgqqblX_n for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 09:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F6193A12E7 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 09:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from unformal-11.home ([47.186.0.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 0B7H0RZb016432 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:00:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1607360428; bh=dTW64DkEc7N8fWqUKaWcqyF51gKnb//ND/GLz0r1ZmE=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=O54OLvWXl6Bypsh74rd3hmfu+lMKLlgfgWGGo7PXT/joIAiGOKpl4d9RJp+k069jI r5Oj3DhtKGEo2nhng7bgZtOIcuAT3m6XKPJyc3jxuNad5Q79LezzzP98GPnBKeAQvz oS9tYdqILt+k3kguhAhQJMKc2DLGqIpvPq70GPaE= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.0.128] claimed to be unformal-11.home To: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:00:22 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------844B78E542EC5DCD05CDC78F" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 17:00:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------844B78E542EC5DCD05CDC78F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think). RjS On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > That didn’t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan > Gössner’s name?). > > Grüße, Carsten > > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt* >> *Date: *2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET >> *To: *> >> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >> *Archived-At: >> *> > >> *Message-Id: *<160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com >> > >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> >>        Title           : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path >>        Authors         : Glyn Normington >>                          Edward Surov >>                          Marko Mikulicic >>                          Fachhochschule Dortmund >> Filename        : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt >> Pages           : 21 >> Date            : 2020-12-07 > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --------------844B78E542EC5DCD05CDC78F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at

<https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#L511>

An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think).

RjS

On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
That didn’t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan Gössner’s name?).

Grüße, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Date: 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


       Title           : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path
       Authors         : Glyn Normington
                         Edward Surov
                         Marko Mikulicic
                         Fachhochschule Dortmund
Filename        : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Pages           : 21
Date            : 2020-12-07


___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--------------844B78E542EC5DCD05CDC78F-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 11:57:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82113A0822 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:57:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUTIcygeEP_z for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ej1-x632.google.com (mail-ej1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8E6A3A07B3 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 11:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-x632.google.com with SMTP id f23so21300952ejk.2 for ; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 11:57:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oH71w/XrTZwGWu0cWmeN2Z8aRQQe4umIQn8nshQoWzA=; b=YhbV00BbCHJYyvrNJEGfGVAY4QUJO6WPK6h2mZy7FWUQiFtYDbYpuw/B/50fhE9+Rm hc3bVDoQTnnrupCuSgssM4tbhCiEwo694AiEdmsnbwW1Y/GcE9kzAijz3blezPplUL14 Jdu+yfzwOwU5qbc0PRx+pbzf8jEgeAcUKzHiQUINfT6qrcZjxQl7pbzvI+WpuUzSRqF5 OksIje89JEky2Hao+td/DrJA3ZYp5V0F9ynokGil11QJNqRGROJ9u7ct6C8cZ7k/mxtJ w8hpHw6PH/DDjNCaELaKFpnaDWJC6ymPLQzGZFYPQ6r+OEY0vavM0xkocZ4x2Evz696d yplA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oH71w/XrTZwGWu0cWmeN2Z8aRQQe4umIQn8nshQoWzA=; b=FArXDPt6L5CCmu0I0gGAYjNZq32wZBS+o+shb210RYQz34G++UWWB1cVTWOHCLpdno ThKh1HIJhEmdaQm1UAUu/37r4uGFevTJbqOOESPE335V1Z9enBH93kHtWAy9X/LgWGqB +5IbXSyRwPPZTDegDAxzHWUhEczkXOzxHVHxY3rJlYFl8V8cDVnW6YtRXT3nmHoe9MkE sOMOtD0Aa50S7kq93V0T5NV23bmde4/MpvRAEHucb1a50AfuBfwdt/yHekLW66p5e/d0 iD77KGphYxKJuQ3cFdeEANDs2s56CINe5rJgF9SCc1ZfZbkm1VanufrjKDmM24fQOcNL 5/oA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Jx73SZyppJXmm5mrfVyYiixfLDBofmEQ2Uxs/RBiUaB4PS0Ee /8ZHNL0fPhR5AVn5WnvYGX6HMSfGzG/Vc7GMcJ4VDRed X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw6AzsabR/RybooQolsOJFDV+96snU3eHGBBP/Q/sPYw90TvolzmLBXWcCTTev/3E1e49HIKwBxH3dfVMRL7Ms= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4412:: with SMTP id x18mr20143987ejo.301.1607371032938; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 11:57:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Richard Barnes Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:56:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000070cef105b5e53b8f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 19:57:18 -0000 --00000000000070cef105b5e53b8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page? This code should not be secret. 2. Related: https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784 On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at > > > > > > An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think). > > RjS > On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan G= =C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s > name?). > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org > *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt* > *Date: *2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET > *To: * > *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org > *Archived-At: *< > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i-d-announce/L7c7k-dRJ80ug5CVzfUAu_= R3fnQ > > > *Message-Id: *<160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path > Authors : Glyn Normington > Edward Surov > Marko Mikulicic > Fachhochschule Dortmund > Filename : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2020-12-07 > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing listTools-discuss@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs athttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > --00000000000070cef105b5e53b8f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that pag= e?=C2=A0 This code should not be secret.

2. Related:=C2= =A0https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784
On= Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at

<https://trac.tools.ietf.org/t= ools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#L511>

An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think).

RjS

On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
=20 That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan G=C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s name?).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Date: 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: JavaScript Object Nota= tion (JSON) Path
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Authors =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Glyn Normington
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Edward Surov
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Marko Mikulicic
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Fachhochschule Dortmund
Filename =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: draft-normingto= n-jsonpath-00.txt
Pages =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0: 21
Date =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0: 2020-12-07


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Please report dat=
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Please report tools.iet=
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ls.ietf.org/tools/issues
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Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--00000000000070cef105b5e53b8f-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 12:07:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5E63A083B for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:07:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IR4jV8qga6wt for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C22E3A0876 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:07:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from unformal-11.home ([47.186.0.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 0B7K6wP9084998 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:06:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1607371619; bh=BE8GqaJZv0wG2apthZx0m4LUX+Pv1duSXjs66KURhn8=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=DdqYqWztn+tJipextUA+WN/TjOJTtCPd4uILtmHF2h2V2xYO0K69Talh51xZEr0SN pbSkwrwyF0Vi8L0S1QZUVg7Va5qYU4ehwrfdWvxdHApYKFUEBCmGX4muO0cBWdcAlZ uRvVnb40vTrCHSfLVBUl4vVROc4jh4tGxtJrcU1M= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.0.128] claimed to be unformal-11.home To: Richard Barnes Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:06:53 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D1889324DF720E84EF1AB618" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 20:07:11 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D1889324DF720E84EF1AB618 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/7/20 1:56 PM, Richard Barnes wrote: > 1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page? This code=20 > should not be secret. It is not secret. But bots have been overwhelming that site - asking=20 real people to login cut that load by orders of magnitude. We will move this sourcebase, but for now setting up a tools.ietf.org=20 account is not an impossible hurdle. > > 2. Related: https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784=20 > What we allow in the txt documents changed. It is unsurprising that=20 code, especially code that has to operate on heuristics, would need to=20 be touched to align with those changes. > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks > wrote: > > The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) > is at > > > > > An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think). > > RjS > > On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Ste= fan >> G=C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s name?). >> >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >> >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt* >>> *Date: *2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET >>> *To: *> >>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> >>> *Archived-At: >>> *>> > >>> *Message-Id: >>> *<160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>> Internet-Drafts directories. >>> >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: JavaScript Object Notation (J= SON) Path >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Authors =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Glyn Normington >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0Edward Surov >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0Marko Mikulicic >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0Fachhochschule Dortmund >>> Filename =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: draft-normin= gton-jsonpath-00.txt >>> Pages =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= : 21 >>> Date =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0: 2020-12-07 >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please reportdatatracker.ietf.org = andmailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs athttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email todatatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please reporttools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email towebmaster@tools.ietf.org > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org > and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > --------------D1889324DF720E84EF1AB618 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 12/7/20 1:56 PM, Richard Barnes wrote:
1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page?  This code should not be secret.

It is not secret. But bots have been overwhelming that site - asking real people to login cut that load by orders of magnitude.

We will move this sourcebase, but for now setting up a tools.ietf.org account is not an impossible hurdle.


What we allow in the txt documents changed. It is unsurprising that code, especially code that has to operate on heuristics, would need to be touched to align with those changes.



On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at

<https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#L511>

An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think).

RjS

On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
That didn’t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan Gössner’s name?).

Grüße, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Date: 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


       Title           : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path
       Authors         : Glyn Normington
                         Edward Surov
                         Marko Mikulicic
                         Fachhochschule Dortmund
Filename        : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Pages           : 21
Date            : 2020-12-07


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Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
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or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
___________________________________________________________
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bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--------------D1889324DF720E84EF1AB618-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 12:07:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094A43A0978 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VXCMtimVb8vO for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com (mail-ej1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A852C3A083B for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id b9so10984567ejy.0 for ; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 12:07:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JlnwS08Aa+2F+8v9IgMqYpBZPa2WX8JjTyop0F2ZSpY=; b=eGiu4koLpDohVWcRsd4zCdzI+8GgWAxMDSQ8A6QFrWWpaU1Q+RmVTXkNwh8MAddv4r WtdA440IJrk1YTvuO06BQqeON4jlfyJWgCEoX2f7bcbYKq/MWFbTD5ihrMicp4/lhbea oeUzXl20hB836PtwCTyFT9rxegdbGiHx+hH8xZzxuP+YJA1mcNxyuuQSrhRs8V6/T8Jr ZhNkNYBuBTMBkBkyBiO2lSUnuNOTDJCwU3k8+dNAsRBBoepp6Z6OGaZ6iYhSYslEUZ9Z vdgQSSHzT3t7Yh6RiflH6vgjba1tcmddiPBvjyr94kdP7rXk/yiLbp1B6U5zn64A9n+p /Tow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JlnwS08Aa+2F+8v9IgMqYpBZPa2WX8JjTyop0F2ZSpY=; b=IpUYtvPb7YZ/rqxJ9F2oKPCvbu5aD8iLdWSpOq9NcfPDCbvabsqrt80xnc/0MrC8qh 5jKrWGLrGKIxTxAnlU/S51minr+Z+DV6Xqv8Bbzp4kpQq+ucrGzqPhegmaAcWPXKiVkO a0uGpnPlwHctW1BDb/ghW5jqGTZ2vZ+shuiK0od/Co55PjLkWQTZytpFSvO4886IZUa8 o3lZWtRCrWdXk1lT7GuUnkdGW+BoAPWzHmJmnDMA9h0x2nC1AghiK+Dmxu1da6URCGmO Mf/PGdcvwm3E/OCba0WfX0xAXC0Ws6rPdBohT+3gk3yzdml/VhcwhXbqZgPbZA0Nley8 oMSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532CJrvxkAD2kwDqJ4J/wWO0D6LXYemAwX+cuQHiCzwaXU34lu0u AHBn53TR0jIEPzspNPhg//knZ3NbkD+i5+eOARRSHbZWwm0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZmieNaj09sGE7Z87TnmOMofWKQmT95uL2d4HvV5RJW6hcb6D7Zt7ZASCb+4sAUOgUkufcxxj5eK6ahGaKV2Q= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:3e17:: with SMTP id hp23mr20140642ejc.545.1607371631165; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 12:07:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Richard Barnes Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 15:06:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019060e05b5e55f70" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 20:07:19 -0000 --00000000000019060e05b5e55f70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems likely that the bug is in these name regexes, which use `A-Z` and `a-z` instead of Unicode-tolerant constructions like `\w` and `[:upper:]` https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#= L519 https://docs.python.org/3/howto/unicode.html https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36187349/python-regex-for-unicode-capit= alized-words If this were in a proper repo and had proper testing in CI to confirm the fix, I would submit a patch, but =F0=9F=A4=B7=E2=80=8D=E2=99=82=EF=B8=8F On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 2:56 PM Richard Barnes wrote: > 1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page? This code should > not be secret. > > 2. Related: https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784 > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks > wrote: > >> The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at >> >> >> >> >> >> An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think). >> >> RjS >> On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan G= =C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s >> name?). >> >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt* >> *Date: *2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET >> *To: * >> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >> *Archived-At: *< >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i-d-announce/L7c7k-dRJ80ug5CVzfUAu= _R3fnQ >> > >> *Message-Id: *<160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> >> Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path >> Authors : Glyn Normington >> Edward Surov >> Marko Mikulicic >> Fachhochschule Dortmund >> Filename : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt >> Pages : 21 >> Date : 2020-12-07 >> >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing listTools-discuss@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs athttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> > --00000000000019060e05b5e55f70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It seems likely that the bug is in these name regexes, whi= ch use `A-Z` and `a-z` instead of Unicode-tolerant constructions like `\w` = and `[:upper:]`

=

If this were in a p= roper repo and had proper testing in CI to confirm the fix, I would submit = a patch, but =F0=9F=A4=B7=E2=80=8D=E2=99=82=EF=B8=8F

On Mon, Dec 7, 20= 20 at 2:56 PM Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
1. Robert: Why do I have to= log in to access that page?=C2=A0 This code should not be secret.

2. Related:=C2=A0https://twitter.com/mikewest/status= /1335857840028790784

On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks <<= a href=3D"mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank">rjsparks@nostrum.c= om> wrote:
<https://trac.tools.ietf.org/t= ools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#L511>

An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think).

RjS

On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
=20 That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan G=C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s name?).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Date: 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: JavaScript Object Nota= tion (JSON) Path
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Authors =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Glyn Normington
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Edward Surov
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Marko Mikulicic
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Fachhochschule Dortmund
Filename =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: draft-normingto= n-jsonpath-00.txt
Pages =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0: 21
Date =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0: 2020-12-07


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--00000000000019060e05b5e55f70-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 12:11:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98973A08EB for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mSVtHWtOblew for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1B123A0B2C for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id c7so15119383edv.6 for ; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 12:11:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7xeGtU6hTkQ6ZO8JaJyovFtBtkTsroJma66muDc38KU=; b=epYTTbNhsKb+VKJyINMz1nFWWlXQ6bw+KPtswwrV1Y6vOCdq+Z2wSS4H4SygrZT1h1 nB5sB1aFwwo/U4j3mmwm4XzgIYcQB+0PRGdVqAQnXT/EHkegHhEgsSsUC9qGi9iAlwoV ZYKWTqkuCgMy7Iy7hblUkdhsvzPBI9lf8cakXKWYIwRfbnQhkCnIZ+Wmzbc98EvoubAz fT6UwqmJ2Zr1VjnYHzYsiHftFEmIV+T5AJyiCoI3kPlXmRj5aIYD54bRF8vp5dCmxHqO oCldFj1lRn88nY4CvY5M0bv7c11q7/9bYMtHegdRHPpmdNwgdbGC7VZUe/phMDacKmYF GlUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7xeGtU6hTkQ6ZO8JaJyovFtBtkTsroJma66muDc38KU=; b=YkD+m96FK14zF30hSx3GNoIZ3yn33Tkk2TadC9jA9+nQIsXmslRvmH2ot3h8Wr45bT TJ/ceLvVwayFS09QcyODBI0qA49Qr3n+S5L3QwUpCIjgPc6+fS46Hek0MOVSWCvmktXC lRb0tYcV6M8sjw1H6Ihe+Q4CxeT9MrFqA4ujKh5gsR/3P9PfO8ua+lbp6IBhYbJRlttY tznBbcX0cJDw7HJF7ziBKPH0DkRxLcISMR2BIhVc15otcPfHfUwq5uBC6ZhMQTBGZw6m e9oxG5wByEf8vrA3ETn+ekY1Mtal0S2Iyuktd0BBQR/f1Q7O5BIvPAJ8F2Ss0+h7uV2b M/3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531yH9tBm7w7E+a6P4xYeamvZKbN6BPVi+u8r4QVNseIvcDo13mY 1zhLIOSy3u90NAA2daTxq5blri1kOKO3PkdcQdI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwI2jXQdFJ3W/FLQfTHBVoGjY3QQB5Q82OP+ihSrMmoFQQOyhhA2ufS5kfTCLLsaLEDPmZW5/DLr4oj4ZRGWKg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1a30:: with SMTP id be16mr22004796edb.124.1607371870228; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 12:11:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 15:10:49 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000058d4c005b5e56d42" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 20:11:39 -0000 --00000000000058d4c005b5e56d42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 3:07 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > > On 12/7/20 1:56 PM, Richard Barnes wrote: > > 1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page? This code should > not be secret. > > It is not secret. But bots have been overwhelming that site - asking real > people to login cut that load by orders of magnitude. > > We will move this sourcebase, but for now setting up a tools.ietf.org > account is not an impossible hurdle. > This seems like a problem that Cloudflare or any other CDN) would be well-suited to address. Pretty amazed that this was not already in place. --Richard > > 2. Related: https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784 > > What we allow in the txt documents changed. It is unsurprising that code, > especially code that has to operate on heuristics, would need to be touch= ed > to align with those changes. > > > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks > wrote: > >> The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at >> >> >> >> >> >> An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think). >> >> RjS >> On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan G= =C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s >> name?). >> >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt* >> *Date: *2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET >> *To: * >> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >> *Archived-At: *< >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i-d-announce/L7c7k-dRJ80ug5CVzfUAu= _R3fnQ >> > >> *Message-Id: *<160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> >> Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path >> Authors : Glyn Normington >> Edward Surov >> Marko Mikulicic >> Fachhochschule Dortmund >> Filename : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt >> Pages : 21 >> Date : 2020-12-07 >> >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing listTools-discuss@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs athttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> > --00000000000058d4c005b5e56d42 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 3:07 PM Robert= Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

What we allow in the txt documents changed. It is unsurprising that code, especially code that has to operate on heuristics, would need to be touched to align with those changes.



On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at

<https://trac.tools.ie= tf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#L511>

An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think).

RjS

On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (mayb= e because of the Umlaut in Stefan G=C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s name?)= .

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: = I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Date: 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: JavaScript Objec= t Notation (JSON) Path
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Authors = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Glyn Normington
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Edward Surov
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Marko Mikulicic
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Fachhochschule Dortmund
Filena= me =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: draft-n= ormington-jsonpath-00.txt
Pages =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0: 21
Date =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: 2020-12-07


________________________________________________________=
___
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etf.org
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Please report dat=
atracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at ht=
tp://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.iet=
f.org bugs at
http://too=
ls.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
___________________________________________________________
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Tools= -discuss@ietf.org
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Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
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Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
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or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--00000000000058d4c005b5e56d42-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 12:15:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C7D3A0880 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:15:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IDzM9K0B9XPs for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 477683A089A for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from unformal-11.home ([47.186.0.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 0B7KFWTe088160 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:15:33 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1607372133; bh=gB4QiWiBve9fwkDJ6KqUNYnq55hSv39750lYAZ+Uk5U=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZkyY/XP2RKCi2m24+/fIiVnZKcZlVQPYl4Wuee17wXvWJu0E5PzB2g6JZ6i0iTEmt MFFVXEH4Gc4tLWBBduYHmQTz/ka+vJMsCxmprCuHe9fsQxF5W3CruQsLcvYuuQAlFW z0jeeZd2f3G86C6ihFu+bhHKx8AIiu0d/rHfaCxE= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.0.128] claimed to be unformal-11.home To: Richard Barnes Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <2aec5dc7-9ba2-cdb7-b341-6e25207e75bf@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:15:27 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D37E0ECFC312011471956146" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 20:15:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D37E0ECFC312011471956146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/7/20 2:06 PM, Richard Barnes wrote: > It seems likely that the bug is in these name regexes, which use `A-Z` > and `a-z` instead of Unicode-tolerant constructions like `\w` and > `[:upper:]` > > https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#L519 > > > https://docs.python.org/3/howto/unicode.html > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36187349/python-regex-for-unicode-capitalized-words > > > If this were in a proper repo and had proper testing in CI to confirm > the fix, I would submit a patch, but 🤷‍♂️ Please restrain your tone. The older subversion repository _is_ a proper repository, and the codebase has a testsuite that is run through automated testing on commit. I understand that you are not happy with subversion, and not happy with the level of interaction required to get to the point where you can commit to a branch. I'm working on addressing that. In the meantime, if you are willing to also add a test to the test in the submission app, send me a patch directly and I'll deal with wrangling the tool. RjS > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 2:56 PM Richard Barnes > > wrote: > > 1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page?  This code > should not be secret. > > 2. Related: > https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784 > > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks > > wrote: > > The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt > submission) is at > > > > > An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think). > > RjS > > On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> That didn’t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan >> Gössner’s name?). >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> >>> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt* >>> *Date: *2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET >>> *To: *> >>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> >>> *Archived-At: >>> *>> > >>> *Message-Id: >>> *<160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>> Internet-Drafts directories. >>> >>> >>>        Title           : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path >>>        Authors         : Glyn Normington >>>                          Edward Surov >>>                          Marko Mikulicic >>>                          Fachhochschule Dortmund >>> Filename        : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt >>> Pages           : 21 >>> Date            : 2020-12-07 >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please reportdatatracker.ietf.org andmailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs athttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email todatatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please reporttools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email towebmaster@tools.ietf.org > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org > and mailarchive.ietf.org > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > --------------D37E0ECFC312011471956146 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 12/7/20 2:06 PM, Richard Barnes wrote:
It seems likely that the bug is in these name regexes, which use `A-Z` and `a-z` instead of Unicode-tolerant constructions like `\w` and `[:upper:]`



If this were in a proper repo and had proper testing in CI to confirm the fix, I would submit a patch, but 🤷‍♂️

Please restrain your tone.

The older subversion repository _is_ a proper repository, and the codebase has a testsuite that is run through automated testing on commit.

I understand that you are not happy with subversion, and not happy with the level of interaction required to get to the point where you can commit to a branch. I'm working on addressing that.

In the meantime, if you are willing to also add a test to the test in the submission app, send me a patch directly and I'll deal with wrangling the tool.

RjS


On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 2:56 PM Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page?  This code should not be secret.

2. Related: https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784

On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at

<https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#L511>

An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think).

RjS

On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
That didn’t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan Gössner’s name?).

Grüße, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Date: 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


       Title           : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path
       Authors         : Glyn Normington
                         Edward Surov
                         Marko Mikulicic
                         Fachhochschule Dortmund
Filename        : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Pages           : 21
Date            : 2020-12-07


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--------------D37E0ECFC312011471956146-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 12:27:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77513A0AF9 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:27:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g9A1DhIIwY5S for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F24B3A0C03 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id k4so15215814edl.0 for ; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 12:27:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5Sks1TXnapGfAxkoUA7kcAnz1Dx4xP7FzbRE66SJ+/8=; b=ihNOI44fSctpoxdzVNS5lVxkFDJyC6zQock0Qy+QoKChAgV+O2BsJKEhSWYjyfP4Xy LrjLSUMNtz6gB2/0CFlzrtaV30x+j/KZ/1Bcm8EmMSNcmSqjeCwMzTD407xBNo/9T+2C HQRq7WFvVM6wUvdF6Z7TToYg0g2YhJTBzSXY0riY6ErjJTcdrnhYXqwkQxdb+2KFZvCL cciTBZ31UrfoM6A7efl7tbvBmjyb3SQNdHF76svvRAy+tahffugfbeSh3c/LDEc4tdVO osoj64OUTrE3OAjJsi4Y2RVUojtVuX3d2o5smI5GbIEOhHsSif4FBsxyKEY7Er9lPdth pamQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5Sks1TXnapGfAxkoUA7kcAnz1Dx4xP7FzbRE66SJ+/8=; b=Wrbn6gkZmvJ+ajBSfAhOGnwfti8xej8vY+CNErsVb8/lp1nXo/qnuGTJ0bKKhmee4u +kEh9X6lbOK8ndQlzgxWeNWpzwv2wDWYejMqcCJZmpRfhCfptwK4Ntnm3tdX8Me02SO7 fDlZ9Tj+E02akRuajOhCPw89DP9BAsT2K192Pbtiq5mU7rkRhurKlFtGNvoaCqblTcRN fNr+jKmgrKy+tKwiUedREGNwn7JT/dN3p/dcfEK+pC09Dlymp3WorrLU6zbfH/bUj3iM RxcMIxfobW6cqsudzIYtfQ4kjOglHjObA+/DZGiJQSclbOVV+z5K47xXthjGIQWe91JO TpqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531mvwiteVEyREHrsaxt5WjjKuqdBgxJexdL677CmjsrdYfQ/hl3 mDW7oaW+Tfjou1OSgLOaGzglW+tsZP/HK2C2Ydc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwamEH9xLC0uAMbBdnAHfaovN6SYuTRD/oJePiJMrZQubUH1O3VW5f61IQrVrF3oRN6vVk3fIR0e/qe59lbatg= X-Received: by 2002:a50:a6de:: with SMTP id f30mr22109103edc.30.1607372823920; Mon, 07 Dec 2020 12:27:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <2aec5dc7-9ba2-cdb7-b341-6e25207e75bf@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <2aec5dc7-9ba2-cdb7-b341-6e25207e75bf@nostrum.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 15:26:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003105b705b5e5a6f8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 20:27:16 -0000 --0000000000003105b705b5e5a6f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry if the "proper" language is a bit sharp. The point is that I would have to google "how to install SVN", "how to clone an SVN repo", "how to generate a patch from SVN", ... and it would take hours longer than it ought to. Not worth it for a volunteer, drive-by contribution. And if I, a crusty old-timer, am deterred... To be clear, I know that there are reasons and I know some work is being done. But it's still important to name the problem, at the very least to highlight the importance and urgency of getting that work done. --RLB On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 3:15 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > > On 12/7/20 2:06 PM, Richard Barnes wrote: > > It seems likely that the bug is in these name regexes, which use `A-Z` an= d > `a-z` instead of Unicode-tolerant constructions like `\w` and `[:upper:]` > > > https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.p= y#L519 > > https://docs.python.org/3/howto/unicode.html > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36187349/python-regex-for-unicode-cap= italized-words > > If this were in a proper repo and had proper testing in CI to confirm the > fix, I would submit a patch, but =F0=9F=A4=B7=E2=80=8D=E2=99=82=EF=B8=8F > > Please restrain your tone. > > The older subversion repository _is_ a proper repository, and the codebas= e > has a testsuite that is run through automated testing on commit. > > I understand that you are not happy with subversion, and not happy with > the level of interaction required to get to the point where you can commi= t > to a branch. I'm working on addressing that. > > In the meantime, if you are willing to also add a test to the test in the > submission app, send me a patch directly and I'll deal with wrangling the > tool. > > RjS > > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 2:56 PM Richard Barnes > wrote: > >> 1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page? This code shoul= d >> not be secret. >> >> 2. Related: https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784 >> >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks >> wrote: >> >>> The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think). >>> >>> RjS >>> On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> >>> That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan G= =C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s >>> name?). >>> >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt* >>> *Date: *2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET >>> *To: * >>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> *Archived-At: *< >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i-d-announce/L7c7k-dRJ80ug5CVzfUA= u_R3fnQ >>> > >>> *Message-Id: *<160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> >>> >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>> directories. >>> >>> >>> Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path >>> Authors : Glyn Normington >>> Edward Surov >>> Marko Mikulicic >>> Fachhochschule Dortmund >>> Filename : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt >>> Pages : 21 >>> Date : 2020-12-07 >>> >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing listTools-discuss@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs athttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> >> --0000000000003105b705b5e5a6f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry if the "proper"=C2=A0language=C2=A0is a bi= t sharp.=C2=A0 The point is that I would have to google "how to instal= l SVN", "how to clone an SVN repo", "how to generate a = patch from SVN", ... and it would take hours longer than it ought to.= =C2=A0 Not worth it for a volunteer, drive-by contribution.=C2=A0 And if I,= a crusty old-timer, am deterred...

To be clear, I know = that there are reasons and I know some work is being done.=C2=A0 But it'= ;s still important to name the problem, at the very least to highlight the = importance and urgency of getting that work done.

= --RLB

On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 3:15 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20


On 12/7/20 2:06 PM, Richard Barnes wrote:
=20
It seems likely that the bug is in these name regexes, which use `A-Z` and `a-z` instead of Unicode-tolerant constructions like `\w` and `[:upper:]`



If this were in a proper repo and had proper testing in CI to confirm the fix, I would submit a patch, but =F0=9F=A4=B7=E2= =80=8D=E2=99=82=EF=B8=8F

Please restrain your tone.

The older subversion repository _is_ a proper repository, and the codebase has a testsuite that is run through automated testing on commit.

I understand that you are not happy with subversion, and not happy with the level of interaction required to get to the point where you can commit to a branch. I'm working on addressing that.=

In the meantime, if you are willing to also add a test to the test in the submission app, send me a patch directly and I'll dea= l with wrangling the tool.

RjS


On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 2:56 P= M Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page?=C2=A0 This code should not be secret.

2. Related:=C2=A0https://twitter.com/mikewest/status= /1335857840028790784

On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is at

<https://trac.tool= s.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/utils/draft.py#L511>

An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think).

RjS

On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (= maybe because of the Umlaut in Stefan G=C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s na= me?).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt<= br>
Date: 2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: JavaScript O= bject Notation (JSON) Path
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Autho= rs =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Glyn Normington
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Edward Surov
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Marko Mikulicic
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Fachhochschule Dortmund
Fi= lename =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: dra= ft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt
Pa= ges =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: 21
Da= te =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: 2020-12-07


____________________________________________________=
_______
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@i=
etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report dat=
atracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at ht=
tp://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.iet=
f.org bugs at
http://too=
ls.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
T= ools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--0000000000003105b705b5e5a6f8-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 12:41:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41EF13A0989 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:41:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TQfaRtnEQhiY for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B59D13A097C for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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AQHWzLdvC2e+acWxZEyshLpW2pDSy6nsL0gAgAAxUQCAAALJAIAAAmiAgAADIYD//6/pAA== Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 20:41:05 +0000 Message-ID: <6D256BC5-5B98-40BE-B001-5BF78839C885@akamai.com> References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <2aec5dc7-9ba2-cdb7-b341-6e25207e75bf@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.43.20110804 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6D256BC55B9840BEB0015BF78839C885akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.343, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-12-07_16:2020-12-04, 2020-12-07 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 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12:50:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <2aec5dc7-9ba2-cdb7-b341-6e25207e75bf@nostrum.com> <6D256BC5-5B98-40BE-B001-5BF78839C885@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <6D256BC5-5B98-40BE-B001-5BF78839C885@akamai.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:49:41 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Richard Barnes , Robert Sparks , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004420de05b5e5f9da" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 20:50:28 -0000 --0000000000004420de05b5e5f9da Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:41 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > > - Sorry if the "proper" language is a bit sharp. The point is that I > would have to google "how to install SVN", "how to clone an SVN repo",= "how > to generate a patch from SVN", ... and it would take hours longer than= it > ought to. Not worth it for a volunteer, drive-by contribution. And i= f I, > a crusty old-timer, am deterred... > > > > A couple of points. First, tools.ietf.org is not behind a CDN. Whether > or not it should be is a separate question. > I don't think we should be in a position where we need to require login for access to non-sensitive static data. There are a number of solutions to this problem, so I think that the question of a CDN or not is probably the wrong level of abstraction to be discussing. But the rationale for requiring a login now makes sense. Second, the > tools community is small and has years of source control and workflow > experience. It=E2=80=99s not clear that moving to Git is worth much, eve= n if it > means putting in a slight barrier to contributions from others. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t consider your language to be sharp, but rather coming fro= m a place > of ignorance. > The point that I take Richard to be making -- which I agree with -- is that part of the reason for that community being small is a workflow that creates barriers to entry for small contributions. FWIW, it's not just him. I recently found a minor defect in xml2rfc [0] which I probably could have fixed quickly, but then I looked at the overhead involved and decided IO had better things to do. -Ekr [0] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/575 --0000000000004420de05b5e5f9da Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:41 PM Salz,= Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
  • Sorry if the "proper"=C2=A0language= =C2=A0is a bit sharp.=C2=A0 The point is that I would have to google "= how to install SVN", "how to clone an SVN repo", "how t= o generate a patch from SVN", ... and it would take hours longer than it ought to.=C2=A0 Not worth it for a volu= nteer, drive-by contribution.=C2=A0 And if I, a crusty old-timer, am deterr= ed...

=C2=A0

A couple of points.=C2=A0 First, tools.ietf.org is not behind a CDN.=C2= =A0 Whether or not it should be is a separate question.


I don't think we should be in = a position where we need to require login for access to non-sensitive stati= c data. There are a number of solutions to this problem, so I think that th= e question of a CDN or not is probably the wrong level of abstraction to be= discussing.


=C2=A0 But the rationale for requiring a login now makes sense. S= econd, the tools community is small and has years of source control and workflow experience.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s not clear that moving = to Git is worth much, even if it means putting in a slight barrier to contr= ibutions from others.

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t consider your language to be sharp, = but rather coming from a place of ignorance.


The point tha= t I take Richard to be making -- which I agree with -- is that part of the = reason for that community being small is a workflow that creates barriers t= o entry for small contributions. FWIW, it's not just him. I recently fo= und a minor defect in xml2rfc [0] which I probably could have fixed quickly= , but then I looked at the overhead involved and decided IO had better thin= gs to do.

-Ekr

[0] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/xml2rfc/trac/ticket/575=C2=A0
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aGUgbW9zdCBpbXBvcnRhbnQgcHJpb3JpdHkgb2YgdGhlIHRlYW0uPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8 L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_9BA7315FC7134079ADC45A5527E44B07akamaicom_-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 13:25:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DA73A0B2C for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:25:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIh4x39Dyh1B for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DA2F3A0B23 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 13:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.10.190] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F0DBC2B9BE; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 16:25:38 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1607376339; bh=kuKz0jjM6xG5QRDSVaYlnXlxtgxGO4viRshDsOJEsh0=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Cc:Date:References:To:From; b=OwRxocDtAs2bJ/YPBYJYxlJlXiuwqZWci4xqV28LvtQTHrWfM9txdNyOVC4KbWef0 6eGl0+KH43k9PrcRxWjx9hLPQ30mJvV/ldxRdP+28t758xYzw9Midvon/Oa+QV+zBN KppZWecH2XU8+RteuRIEy0/vcYjeO+x/q3/4kuaR3LXK3z6pxCCo46YQBY9SFeKn5Z EJiwFaVK4fgimtkRIrXcTaAtmBoOX3kC8s019VUGvyJjwjW/RCRAvdV+gHTqfiTWkU OQzgqAePmci+roAkeM29TgccFYMqQpHVm+Mum5mLMLyME+YMznzzgQPqmoTIESfU0w mTC2v3z1NTFsw== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-32FFE034-C9F8-4A50-9E5D-68E7141FEAD5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Tom Pusateri In-Reply-To: <9BA7315F-C713-4079-ADC4-5A5527E44B07@akamai.com> Cc: Eric Rescorla , Carsten Bormann , Richard Barnes , tools-discuss , Robert Sparks Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 16:25:38 -0500 Message-Id: <34F6CC9B-FD3E-40FF-BB6F-3E5212F286E9@bangj.com> References: <9BA7315F-C713-4079-ADC4-5A5527E44B07@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18B92) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 21:25:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail-32FFE034-C9F8-4A50-9E5D-68E7141FEAD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Dec 7, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > =EF=BB=BF > I guess my key point is that I don=E2=80=99t think SVN->GIT should be the m= ost important priority of the team. I appreciate the dedication the tools team puts into the infrastructure. I c= ouldn=E2=80=99t have written my mobile app without their help and support. B= ut they do seem to be spread thin. There will always be another version control system out there that is better= than the last one that was better than the last one (see pijul), but I thin= k the workflow is probably even more important. The reason people like github is how easy it is to contribute. You can ident= ify a problem, you can submit a fix, you can see how the tests run on your p= roposed fix, you can see the other contributors and have a conversation abou= t a fix, you can fork and try some new ideas, etc. This isn=E2=80=99t about SVN->GIT. Trac is woefully inadequate at this poin= t. Tom --Apple-Mail-32FFE034-C9F8-4A50-9E5D-68E7141FEAD5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Dec 7, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Sal= z, Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

I guess my key point is that I don=E2=80=99t think SV= N->GIT should be the most important priority of the team.

=

I appreciate the d= edication the tools team puts into the infrastructure. I couldn=E2=80=99t ha= ve written my mobile app without their help and support. But they do seem to= be spread thin.

There will always be another= version control system out there that is better than the last one that was b= etter than the last one (see pijul), but I think the workflow is probably ev= en more important.

The reason people like github is= how easy it is to contribute. You can identify a problem, you can submit a f= ix, you can see how the tests run on your proposed fix, you can see the othe= r contributors and have a conversation about a fix, you can fork and try som= e new ideas, etc.

This isn=E2=80=99t about SVN->= GIT.  Trac is woefully inadequate at this point.

Tom

= --Apple-Mail-32FFE034-C9F8-4A50-9E5D-68E7141FEAD5-- From nobody Mon Dec 7 14:01:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7043A0B6D for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:01:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=gjTfaHJV; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=nnLF9cim Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hQRX4JB1uPwg for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AA8E3A0B85 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 35167 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2020 22:01:35 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=895d.5fcea63f.k2012; bh=niuontq1R/E0ZL7CcqRVLoBi7ObK9h/EZgk9zAsL1N4=; b=gjTfaHJVKHzcFem2IhkFdGpV+g1hZg4LtgERIFPNtOTeG2cdizHOEfCmRB7wGOiuNT6UgYY5I0iYcyqMP8iaYx+XgbEHmWwk5yq0hOy/CjQ7XlGgjyB8n8Yu9ltiVoYpQILEhcKhKh6ksc/gFx7KF5L6hBQMifOMTSdV2manryQ/3P0yEkcx6j4L3DHPHHVxRLXIYtrBuWRBw21n94jEl3ZIRWAt8SCxirJAvO/I5iR/srAYZPIbHuGuziBVVIXwnfD+5TXhOzKifv4ujWDPtVJy1xZxxit8jTAlS1r3sZP6GAQvG++ZM5jybVXSodEfxj9KZUA2Rl0UyZlSk2Aqig== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=895d.5fcea63f.k2012; bh=niuontq1R/E0ZL7CcqRVLoBi7ObK9h/EZgk9zAsL1N4=; b=nnLF9cimNJSfFkGzBmBZrzQnR85A0/NSyD1lO2zNgdznq5aza04u8b/35yR1BCCxH6wiSEn3M7IdiHvLMRe9oNme5wxJZS55+g+quma2tv9ZYVuMLRT3tPzWzxVorEy/LmesNFsvvQbPdiWtlztAhTbaoV+VXaQpGbGv/X+bSQYlR+U2uVjiEDeHPAZgVo7vGVwBqXTUIGbM2H8rK1Vrl+4fIHHCV7Ch3/roSLi3MPW2c0dNEJf7P5dq/Q8HigLT6jcHJrOlrcq7UbLotpFil7h2P7oENMDD+7h2qJZZ86CVWWlD2oqJu95zjtD0cqc8BkMNn4KyBDRokXf6LFl8+w== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 07 Dec 2020 22:01:35 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id AC2272922AE0; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 17:01:34 -0500 (EST) Date: 7 Dec 2020 17:01:34 -0500 Message-Id: <20201207220134.AC2272922AE0@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] source control, was Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 22:01:39 -0000 In article you write: >The point that I take Richard to be making -- which I agree with -- is that >part of the reason for that community being small is a workflow that >creates barriers to entry for small contributions. FWIW, it's not just him. >I recently found a minor defect in xml2rfc [0] which I probably could have >fixed quickly, but then I looked at the overhead involved and decided IO >had better things to do. I have to agree. I've been using source control since SCCS and RCS and my brain just isn't big enough to remember umpteen different source control systems, particularly ones I almost never use. For whatever reason git has won the battle and it would be a good idea for us to figure out how to move there. Dunno if it'd be github or a locally hosted gitlab or something else but that's a detail. R's, John From nobody Mon Dec 7 14:46:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4843A0C25 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:46:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9uKH1UxXzYog for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:46:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A0A53A0BFC for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 14:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cqdhm18LMzyVj; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 23:46:32 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20201207220134.AC2272922AE0@ary.qy> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 23:46:31 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629073991.53289-1eca19c034f38e2110a1596a05331942 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9F68D74B-6B9F-4E46-83AB-33467609E682@tzi.org> References: <20201207220134.AC2272922AE0@ary.qy> To: "John R. Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] source control, was Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 22:46:42 -0000 git svn is your friend :-) I used to co-chair a WG that was very slow moving from SVN to git for = some of its older documents, and I think it was good that we took our = time, but it also was good when we finally had finished converting to = git. But more generally, I apologize for having brought up the author = detection issue. (I would love if I could bring up issues here with less fear of the = discussion degenerating.) And thanks Robert for pointing out that this happens for TXT submissions = and pointing to the place to fix. I don=E2=80=99t think I had run into this before -- we have mostly = switched to XML submissions; this draft was submitted by a recently = recruited editor without much help from the old-timers. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Dec 8 03:59:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B21A3A0C4A for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 03:59:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pyxydL-KK9Jt for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 03:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 763FE3A0C24 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 03:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:63849 helo=tannat.local) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kmbeY-0008Ju-4o; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 03:59:36 -0800 To: Robert Sparks , Richard Barnes References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <15ea1736-4bab-fc74-f089-8427f6c2d00c@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 12:58:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bQABxudM6umRM9TRp6uao3W0C29LPd5e8" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, cabo@tzi.org, richard.barnes@gmail.com, rjsparks@nostrum.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 11:59:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --bQABxudM6umRM9TRp6uao3W0C29LPd5e8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="GnjruaGaxKJVfXubTx7Hm8e55DIVuwNf8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Robert Sparks , Richard Barnes Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Message-ID: <15ea1736-4bab-fc74-f089-8427f6c2d00c@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> --GnjruaGaxKJVfXubTx7Hm8e55DIVuwNf8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Responding to the last post in the thread that was on-subject: A long time ago, as it seems now; probably a year or so, I actually went to the regex in question and considered updating it; but then I decided that as a general principle, I was _not_ going to spend too much time making the legacy submission paths equivalent to the XML paths with respect to unicode support. This was an intentional choice of working to make the XML features, and in particular the v3 schema features, more capable in general, without worrying too much about the legacy code paths, in order to entice people to move forwards. This is also the reason why submitting an XML v3 schema draft will trigger generation of a HTML rendering, while a v2 XML submission will not. It would have been possible to generate the old flawed v2 HTML output; it would also have been possible to do a v2-v3 conversion= and generate a v3 HTML output (with the chance that the HTML would not match the .txt due to conversion issues), but neither seemed obviously right. So again the choice was to not spend time on the legacy code paths, but instead present a small advantage to those who move forward to use the XML v3 schema. Henrik On 2020-12-07 21:06, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > On 12/7/20 1:56 PM, Richard Barnes wrote: >> 1. Robert: Why do I have to log in to access that page? This code=20 >> should not be secret. >=20 > It is not secret. But bots have been overwhelming that site - asking=20 > real people to login cut that load by orders of magnitude. >=20 > We will move this sourcebase, but for now setting up a tools.ietf.org=20 > account is not an impossible hurdle. >=20 >=20 >> >> 2. Related: https://twitter.com/mikewest/status/1335857840028790784=20 >> >=20 > What we allow in the txt documents changed. It is unsurprising that=20 > code, especially code that has to operate on heuristics, would need to = > be touched to align with those changes. >=20 >=20 >> >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Robert Sparks > > wrote: >> >> The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) >> is at >> >> >> >> >> An xml submission shouldn't have this issue (I think). >> >> RjS >> >> On 12/7/20 10:38 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> That didn=E2=80=99t quite work (maybe because of the Umlaut in St= efan >>> G=C3=B6ssner=E2=80=99s name?). >>> >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>> >>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt* >>>> *Date: *2020-12-07 at 15:14:43 CET >>>> *To: *> >>>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> >>>> *Archived-At: >>>> *>>> > >>>> *Message-Id: >>>> *<160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>>> Internet-Drafts directories. >>>> >>>> >>>> Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Path >>>> Authors : Glyn Normington >>>> Edward Surov >>>> Marko Mikulicic >>>> Fachhochschule Dortmund >>>> Filename : draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt >>>> Pages : 21 >>>> Date : 2020-12-07 >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list >>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> Please reportdatatracker.ietf.org = andmailarchive.ietf.org >>> bugs athttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >>> or send email todatatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> Please reporttools.ietf.org bugs at >>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >>> or send email towebmaster@tools.ietf.org >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org >> and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> >> >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --GnjruaGaxKJVfXubTx7Hm8e55DIVuwNf8-- --bQABxudM6umRM9TRp6uao3W0C29LPd5e8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Tue, 8 Dec 2020 13:01:42 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9F67074B-EFB6-4B17-BE73-8FE108EBAF75"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <15ea1736-4bab-fc74-f089-8427f6c2d00c@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 13:01:41 +0100 Cc: Robert Sparks , Richard Barnes , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629121701.1788189-a4dbd4f2ef82f2a89c90c240411cd644 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> <15ea1736-4bab-fc74-f089-8427f6c2d00c@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 12:01:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9F67074B-EFB6-4B17-BE73-8FE108EBAF75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 2020-12-08, at 12:58, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >=20 > _not_ going to spend too > much time making the legacy submission paths equivalent to the XML > paths with respect to unicode support. Is .TXT submission legacy? I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten --Apple-Mail=_9F67074B-EFB6-4B17-BE73-8FE108EBAF75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEcr05t4NZlx5Xee/8VkscnDT509sFAl/PayUACgkQVkscnDT5 09tgxA//c0DHUTGODoaxcwhkY+2QZoT93KLJRyVzzvtJUlltwF2J4uO3vAREJ2D4 QUwEQz2eo8vd62vN45nEyzlhWK4pVCTD/wi0X1wXL5A07v8e15hGe+4XpYiXU3v/ utf0EE+frWB9aeBHdCW7TUeunEz1j93DbPMjWdp0EnKMKjFj/q8ARxBEG8IFTof/ 37ipmXJnCBmCecf2IQkbHzm8IDm5SPBRTx9/+Mra6BPnxguOMLdyh3n7rzkBZrZ3 jCBmmewsDrhiaFOwdsuih6AkuDQhbZIYeWTP3eyQNDVfCQA/jZiqJr5xaEjTrh1d f8Eo4jfpXBPCwuTc4oUlXOqjTDzJ06iRlezsPB/R0QtZlUz2dMao36FGkMtwXDOb CTewNrjyfzuOAscpPUqHL/x1GBC5doqsXYPPLOusnOFNJKLSMJ/Hy6Veq0t3ehhO aZf3UvF2gApYpXyG8xb9s6HIRwDhtW4PsosFG0j/tHnQLDxqhTtVzXUdySvYWSvm E0zVxGUGDNUoQXjOaFvHh2U5+FzVXnkQC10zbz32kiZOuJbTF/IQo4o025QwVifB rM+TuxA+mK7HvZkstJpFvlz++Q718EJWBtv0qnp5O8HKyRkUkFdkAeMLhPVaq/Zw u3Jh8b3KJcjBtt2jCynrW5g6KbWZJh7CVPp6i5Dwdt7EV/Z+x2o= =8pj6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9F67074B-EFB6-4B17-BE73-8FE108EBAF75-- From nobody Tue Dec 8 04:03:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10A73A0B6E for ; 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t=1607429014; bh=+CzXrQ2dZmNQA1eiNAr0tA8N5KTq/LH3c+o+Efe1lQ4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=SVYTWWVJey3gvl8zn5il7Ie0+QREss6UwYqYOtIbgk22JSvbX9uTpYe2SnHThmmcw jGovlrHZQq6b53evhYZ1C5E4G75rrUvIe6MaWkvvGiQh64kqgK0XeYI0HACdiihYwX xr5orHIYr2XCnkluoxo7quL+jqMRk50Shf66k/PM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mt75H-1jtOX92s8H-00tVs3 for ; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 13:03:34 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> <15ea1736-4bab-fc74-f089-8427f6c2d00c@levkowetz.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 13:03:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15ea1736-4bab-fc74-f089-8427f6c2d00c@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6xcC2AcPEtEniP6sOe/2L9hUBQwrJKDf184BRyGtmZA7RHAiSU8 xAIaGo3awZxtA4HgYcDTbNaOhrkUxlxf/FQhowSV34X10soebwt9xR+l8Pyq4LcAwYRpXRW pGS4g+3ro1UL7w+PfudUiGgN0oanRwBzfnoReeFkB0mt0t0wlgcpDzOFS9AvIXSMCs9UXMS Z5fTOT74TIFhkcibpnQmA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:se8X+AzF7+c=:CSocNBLj18/rGmDN4EGA2O bSqMnFavfJfW61sGOAQoAmujghiO83mmVQFUUaW0yEcMEzjTkY1kkNnsbGwtbTAbAc35gkCTg 7PJGTQxXa3SAxab4SN3xY5voEc3zTZjUxeDjRwVbsYPrl7yGhHB/2Reeob/JCe2QnsKV9C/Op LLp8cqOMd5NWn+B9xBJA2I4g44Rczh+XvkZjse4ZiteWOSMZU/h0LTzNM9a8ukiwUNphEtNbQ +rzap6CwIjoADvRVuvSIfI2y3VV/Z23B7W/V8cR/sNQCWFeRvzMFgxdLwq+6B+fi6KWQok00/ TlgPI0NOOj7oCyp/uLsxArs6CZEDoyiNlr1Qx+N0h/+b7eHYDN5E0D7FXO+M+0mFG7U9L9Yjp dlXX/HPOqfAoyPZFvaurptbeXOUuKC1UdumCtoRl+v1APIJSrG23Tige9p4JPWIt2DbN1UIz+ rz+gBiiPTmdHqQPMMlg2spsgHUssKxV3jczhyzYMjM0G+Rin3pUyTQ8QMprm/f2/FmzfcuUOU Y+H/hoqF+8zkfJnqLUS2WcJraWhn4czpxX72HlW5hFPM302kjLvD9aO5DrGuZAFiGaTll2z7g aifnB7FzU7oNsd9l490dGtmpdFIJG98QkzGVqBWJMaF2xAlIMaHgEJtVOyfCQkZTTTY8iS+OC 6X6Lvn9HbOjOfHJfTo0gIpV6AxYXXz1gdwh+0hxLnI4jmtXj5El6Ql4UB2SZC2EYyYbJlrMx0 1LEj69D6UhHEqu3xcXHLv1ONaO54UBeBdR7Qk90L5hys+GyL9j/c3YFlfBjVcFNyGHL0dG1PX KZ9t/owBiS7daXryGHSAb0oMKUsvCSGkvFPeNClktiF7ZPzkaNcuZnIA3Pwz/lpIh72HiTqNI jO607KZ+pyKwsGeah0tg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 12:03:40 -0000 Am 08.12.2020 um 12:58 schrieb Henrik Levkowetz: > Responding to the last post in the thread that was on-subject: > > A long time ago, as it seems now; probably a year or so, I actually > went to the regex in question and considered updating it; but then I > decided that as a general principle, I was _not_ going to spend too > much time making the legacy submission paths equivalent to the XML > paths with respect to unicode support. > ... FWIW (and looking how complex the existing code for plain text already is): that seems to be the right approch to me. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Dec 8 04:09:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6563A0C62 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 04:09:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ok1QTGPrd0Oe for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 04:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A2413A0C5F for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 04:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:63878 helo=tannat.local) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kmboX-0005SR-Kk; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 04:09:54 -0800 To: Carsten Bormann References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> <15ea1736-4bab-fc74-f089-8427f6c2d00c@levkowetz.com> <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> Cc: Robert Sparks , Richard Barnes , tools-discuss From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <9da5d39d-7c58-b8f3-2ac3-4900977c5e8a@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 13:09:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5iQ9gNdNg0kl0I7delRQUPa9f933O09rN" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, richard.barnes@gmail.com, rjsparks@nostrum.com, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 12:09:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --5iQ9gNdNg0kl0I7delRQUPa9f933O09rN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="aDIwpixlaWK2hwCU5jllq5u83CKghSLx8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Robert Sparks , Richard Barnes , tools-discuss Message-ID: <9da5d39d-7c58-b8f3-2ac3-4900977c5e8a@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a88d90-d198-2220-6d27-1f3107bfb5b9@nostrum.com> <15ea1736-4bab-fc74-f089-8427f6c2d00c@levkowetz.com> <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> --aDIwpixlaWK2hwCU5jllq5u83CKghSLx8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-12-08 13:01, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2020-12-08, at 12:58, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:= >> >> _not_ going to spend too >> much time making the legacy submission paths equivalent to the XML >> paths with respect to unicode support. >=20 > Is .TXT submission legacy? > I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future. I expect so, too. But it's never had unicode support, and until recently= not needed it. With not enough hours to do everything that's wanted, something has to get second priority. Henrik --aDIwpixlaWK2hwCU5jllq5u83CKghSLx8-- --5iQ9gNdNg0kl0I7delRQUPa9f933O09rN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl/PbQoACgkQTptXS4+7 FxrvLw//X/SE+2Xe9A6qHf2RXuRxq10fnzqFTq8KvBfKDHED6TCuVpzRhzNGSGXC bQMRzVRxNF1rGu7RWNoXHGzt3Sk+jPgjLauctNA2rLdLNa0mDvSeMolLHguSVeAN 0yqfxNkJb9FlwJ3qesqF5IuEOafu/t+gClKpTq5AotDMrAUF2C1J6W9qqN8sNZui oLLQHyz5KaxejRNAYWM90cTbvt3BQJHL8KgjXgHNIphJcApc54wMPqltCTVyN9vu hwfWIS5JTCy0czjknyqLVW4AuED7G1IjE0B8dZ5TMkva96eqGlSXimmzxt5oUA9w nHa1fd3UVajh3aT4lYjsRQ4qiOlbeR97d+XTc+nxt0FZg2jDKgDw4RqwcJNYkO4u zTUd3hit/xXmQOYYJ9+QlOjKbgbz96T317YhkUz0cVmuz0oHRWP3wTrJip0EUKHr sFl+S3pKmjebIX/se1k5EYUE7cA3OTc2eD0gY/b68JASfzx9nTBq9MDRyRrzmE5V UBWged+w0AjcBUKBO4uvR059eNodCoLGlqZSw8AApo8UvLNY0ZZwlziOZCKeVSeE oGEbQOeNlUHNujXfnomzFKgQEVwa7YHMs5dGyMiAZpQvlyISIcFdA+n1aRifXLGG H4r1f2pvxSNz4WWS0HXfJGuZOCdUEJ3rLlWHl2nl6DuaOT7L5YM= =DTd0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5iQ9gNdNg0kl0I7delRQUPa9f933O09rN-- From nobody Tue Dec 8 05:08:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575C43A0D20 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 05:08:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NsxMSaOPUSzh for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 05:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A10383A0D06 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 05:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cr0qn6qzkzyTS; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 14:08:53 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 14:08:53 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629125733.5289-4c62ba4e1ccb3da87458410296625b26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 13:08:58 -0000 On 2020-12-07, at 18:00, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is = at >=20 > = My Python-fu is not strong, and all Web resources I can find are = terminally confused about Python 2 vs. Python 3. Is my assumption correct that mechanically substituting \p{L} for A-Za-z and then \p{Lu} for A-Z in the function extract_authors should solve this problem? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Dec 8 05:22:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261F03A0D21 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 05:22:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SQPeLLVrFhEg for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 05:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CEAE3A0D20 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 05:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:64231 helo=tannat.local) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kmcwH-00056i-Ss; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 05:21:59 -0800 To: Carsten Bormann , Robert Sparks References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> Cc: tools-discuss From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <86c081bd-f4fa-001a-9bc2-9e69445db630@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 14:21:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mnb0afBuTH7M6sCeRvoX1Nb1ej8phmTUP" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, rjsparks@nostrum.com, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 13:22:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --mnb0afBuTH7M6sCeRvoX1Nb1ej8phmTUP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="JsG798wdXtmL1pirLFndcAI5HFWtbUjkR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann , Robert Sparks Cc: tools-discuss Message-ID: <86c081bd-f4fa-001a-9bc2-9e69445db630@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> --JsG798wdXtmL1pirLFndcAI5HFWtbUjkR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, On 2020-12-08 14:08, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-12-07, at 18:00, Robert Sparks wrote: >>=20 >> The relevant code (for extracting authors from a .txt submission) is a= t >>=20 >> >=20 > My Python-fu is not strong, and all Web resources I can find are termin= ally confused about Python 2 vs. Python 3. >=20 > Is my assumption correct that mechanically substituting >=20 > \p{L} for A-Za-z > and then > \p{Lu} for A-Z >=20 > in the function extract_authors should solve this problem? No. This is the reference for the 're' (regular expression) library that= comes with a python installation: https://docs.python.org/3.6/library/re.html In order to use \p{L} and \p{Lu} the code also has to be changed to use the external 'regex' module. Henrik --JsG798wdXtmL1pirLFndcAI5HFWtbUjkR-- --mnb0afBuTH7M6sCeRvoX1Nb1ej8phmTUP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl/Pfe4ACgkQTptXS4+7 FxrA8hAAwkeiTVr5U0wf5Fex5ClGqJrBJAM4jVtsMeQ/4E1nkK+j8sVFPsUo1Sur 9a6cYEzCg4+8KJsT1bLEQzPWaTe7YALOuffhmAo7/5Cmk33Q0SRxRVdkB+xOq9sL QQA+sHyaopDlu+7sf6+SvvgMXAaL8Wljp6fQBLTdTyDeU81G/dR5DjDB+qxZJr1c KtXU9oBpBc/PQbdakJAm6GxFsvr4gSY/K301hSJrGrQb/OK2pijDlrit7JmCv1Z7 EpXBzj52CIgMHFtKOzTRiBW/eDdRtJMGfBzXAYhfVfm91U9Fakl43xvE0//2ZWuV aTiIqlGcdMMfTL6iFBSycE+tZxaeZoMXhpMvaZ3glv+/NyjWe51UHyYln5dCpr97 ybiVnv35PubYB+b0Vb6X+kM013+bJm8w1WBZi9rxJk7f2EsGihiqNb5mI4UzIuOA aMSDXe4VbjpthVyQIUc3z5xroxwJMCI47npfWbYx3CreoBEGY89XlASwntPEs0pu ZIQ8rZ2Xdi706V5okIVkFy2h6uLrLxXQfaC8evIycrY5xGMUaBn1RgG6gnZA0zyR PH16Z2daPrUTSvL/3J3y7dLw/rxIrq4XkcJnLQhN15JUVcZAKOxMfNQP7GqOTew7 fC/7Z+IUCUpQNZRhxDEm6rnTD7ze3YUkOgCRXSRKdMSQJWhP5zY= =va6p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mnb0afBuTH7M6sCeRvoX1Nb1ej8phmTUP-- From nobody Tue Dec 8 06:18:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C433A0EBD for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 06:18:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wn_p7gptStMV for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 06:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E21563A0EB8 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 06:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cr2Mz6cY9zyPY; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 15:18:23 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <86c081bd-f4fa-001a-9bc2-9e69445db630@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 15:18:23 +0100 Cc: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629129903.454891-45f580158c0693b2569bd8fbd771bb04 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3A35451F-6B5C-447F-A014-902265D7B241@tzi.org> References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> <86c081bd-f4fa-001a-9bc2-9e69445db630@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 14:18:29 -0000 Hi Henrik, > On 2020-12-08, at 14:21, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: >=20 > In order to use \p{L} and \p{Lu} the code also has to be changed to = use > the external 'regex' module. Thanks, I didn=E2=80=99t know that. I thought I knew a bit about regexes and their support in various = platforms; I=E2=80=99m seriously stunned. So, would adding a mechanical substitution of regex. for re. within extract_authors (plus adding the import) to the set I gave solve = the problem? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Dec 8 06:52:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34863A0F3A for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 06:52:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xd3vyvtMVWSs for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 06:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6361D3A0F39 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 06:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:65056 helo=tannat.local) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kmeLd-0001qG-FZ; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 06:52:13 -0800 To: Carsten Bormann References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> <86c081bd-f4fa-001a-9bc2-9e69445db630@levkowetz.com> <3A35451F-6B5C-447F-A014-902265D7B241@tzi.org> Cc: tools-discuss , Robert Sparks From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 15:52:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A35451F-6B5C-447F-A014-902265D7B241@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uBngBE6jRf32exQO8BMw3q9u9HWdfK5tJ" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rjsparks@nostrum.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 14:52:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --uBngBE6jRf32exQO8BMw3q9u9HWdfK5tJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="APADFTBGIul4G7H5pScjUsUm9Qv9eUHI5"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss , Robert Sparks Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> <86c081bd-f4fa-001a-9bc2-9e69445db630@levkowetz.com> <3A35451F-6B5C-447F-A014-902265D7B241@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <3A35451F-6B5C-447F-A014-902265D7B241@tzi.org> --APADFTBGIul4G7H5pScjUsUm9Qv9eUHI5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, On 2020-12-08 15:18, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi Henrik, >=20 >> On 2020-12-08, at 14:21, Henrik Levkowetz wrote= : >>=20 >> In order to use \p{L} and \p{Lu} the code also has to be changed to us= e >> the external 'regex' module. >=20 > Thanks, I didn=E2=80=99t know that. > I thought I knew a bit about regexes and their support in various platf= orms; > I=E2=80=99m seriously stunned. >=20 > So, would adding a mechanical substitution of >=20 > regex. for re. >=20 > within extract_authors (plus adding the import) to the set I gave > solve the problem? Probably, yes; but one would want to run a comprehensive test round to be sure that there are no side effects of the change. Henrik --APADFTBGIul4G7H5pScjUsUm9Qv9eUHI5-- --uBngBE6jRf32exQO8BMw3q9u9HWdfK5tJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl/PkxYACgkQTptXS4+7 Fxr5dg//ZkwyKTrN2Ox8H2E7+zNX3fSGS7R8ZmJi/EPZlOKE4xOl1VY7jLgcpFZB DTGqytmQOtzlBp7rgeYR3QdtfFEbsg956WKDlv2JLyuJYdaefM5C9kXiIA9d2MPI 6+VfwVwkrzmAH/P1wvIhL9vFzbyIdjsjTuC5RD5gVUaXI4/1DSjY+4PHiXsUExfn v+a1/WcIzrvTJ7BF3HORFDCaGB/QX9iaSVq4jyC28wS5SRSC67NVHlHKdak0qkWU 8VEaiJuqYqXzKOcpVKBTzQ/MSKLvRvwFOIhnu20OuOSwkuDHLRezEDl0Cm5S6Jly ymJ9VSw3KuxVXud3+KD1G2sRNMcBqHOKJkMsIZS488oDeSRM9KAUccvWF2LlLAkt azWEOI6kNqb6zVYumIXkc7YaCwRG9YZQTXgcVsqrbcostmvIrLXphMKz1FzlBNkw p1fazfYQro1kgFkopeKjwPJWB1BWi9ROxHwQATEkwNX3a5YtqhhcmJjMPsRfNpEq hj8YS9x5xd1CdPMuRkCaeubIXCAw7NQAAfvknSZhkYKizF/1Et8+STfTPfnbyUX6 zWSdB+gJW7Ua47w9g0wU3CqmTJ+hweJTwlKmA+XwUqgMwVy2jyn04wbrH8XDkjVN dtv/ZQ3cIfXJ5RJSxlGpAQNiwB0AvTdDwjkmtwexrWJ83vydYok= =mUx2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uBngBE6jRf32exQO8BMw3q9u9HWdfK5tJ-- From nobody Tue Dec 8 17:30:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631AE3A09AC for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 17:30:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=nfwlyIjj; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=gYKNTd+v Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Os1tQBjpiJE for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 17:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB0553A098C for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 17:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10536 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2020 01:30:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=2925.5fd028a0.k2012; bh=iajCmSKY1T4rwHFUGq/N50EPD82KDED/x52GsS2l3eI=; b=nfwlyIjjG0hf6cKEXSh4IocfnKYM5/v4gglPsHybS5WcgPoQrBo2ZDjRiOoAALb7tzHEY7Y3EU2lNa60w82XmvQtXFhiZiqE0BU4QRVyZ8c92IJ8mEP4U6ea1JHxJCXMqZQwNV7Pl1Jxsp2l+WPRSs0K7shCA5A9lcFHJJ+GU6hCpsvogWL1QURE+1akZe7E4E+Rx9EYKFEwp2zNZyEmrp0tiTEyl3CLA6tyztgEeSaFYRSDW0bZAWqFyPNmeOUSKfllN7hrA29JDpx1EbVzFAFWRX0J648LSBNtrGGeljEnZywH1FekdNoeOF2S+GxSYHP21YZXd3FkNdBAn6ZZxQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=2925.5fd028a0.k2012; bh=iajCmSKY1T4rwHFUGq/N50EPD82KDED/x52GsS2l3eI=; b=gYKNTd+vx6UkAyDl4zK4cJhUaEafimPZ1I3R/jGIKGBqxtGD8SbxpvwMOMlwPb2ceiIX+VAJzpxBKJqnyc6waHmi/8nRDWQv7tuxtrTaphnV6F1SSdt0TIGfrlIzBEA79dCjIF6OBdLnvnS87FaA1uvrQdEuuX+rMGrvW/9xBhTqav2Rm/Mthon0fyMk5eLjP9i5FL6eroVwh8ZWs86iYeGTruJd79aZE3fLAxLkb+4llHrFgjbclktm+knyxHHmaYncqA9WMFUb5KqLYVnz/PnUxZ9xD/KYGS9Zuwm3yR2shWvYNb/qdqtSxlW3q0B3zi3NlgVhWCMskrPdSO+yWQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 09 Dec 2020 01:30:07 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 358B82939817; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:30:06 -0500 (EST) Date: 8 Dec 2020 20:30:06 -0500 Message-Id: <20201209013007.358B82939817@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: cabo@tzi.org In-Reply-To: <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 01:30:15 -0000 In article <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> you write: >Is .TXT submission legacy? >I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future. It's not going away but we're going to give people much stronger hints to submit XML if you have it. In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said they edit in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit that. Huh? R's, John From nobody Tue Dec 8 18:03:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BD13A0B21 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 18:03:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=IBCvLdpT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Ci4L5iRp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vE5zxsrrBJu8 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 18:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53F7E3A0B02 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 18:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70555C0143 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:03:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :message-id:date:to; s=fm1; bh=NsaFfC2qTAk+LDwPZrGP0z9DddJykct9p Fg8ns8tISE=; b=IBCvLdpTfSNJRltYt6F7aWMMzTwoDaI9X6/XKzoD0ZF3Imr1A crcHYVmzbMUq2T9GB4d2TepWyDABYH3CaJyiihtVmBHp8o9mt5gJ65IcV249z2Yj GBElyaAMJCM1zvy0E1vxPiYflwNDfbeNdXmRKEzw4AmXvUSGHcdcp/hDqGwbQqg/ cUtKP+omSixgufFj14WxYfw1N55a0zXwgY+oaeaoA65npWqFXcnVWAVmdeDS5fxO DjgVS4RDgTYWntJ+UjybZ+jHd12x9CR0VB/B68p9PDE3k4yPdVi0XRF25u1U17tf ucrrdZdEGFsCe9/IWXUhaS6VbxLFIOk5+EToA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=NsaFfC 2qTAk+LDwPZrGP0z9DddJykct9pFg8ns8tISE=; b=Ci4L5iRpHb6MDuNaFlqAYf MS3x1kNdNvLTdFPagNm8jMj//iUexJT+Zya/Zl4AocgzVEhQFd2fhAHa+mwDTtBI 1Jw4bcTi1DViCAAsPFSE0gkemfj8BoaHAJu1prgkFt6Qmg3/+30+j9by0uLFUKlb aY3rL0WJCtIc4MZt9omJW4XMy6aRQN1JYDytBER8imCu5/KbU8e6QPy1MohNUtK0 ypfkJFnCxzNOk0AtjHCj0xGfxr01x2+q2Yja7RiSL0HFudD8CWljip/hQvOHcQU2 CvT+Dr+f+52NbwCLoGJM1mOmL6Zd7hoxmvKrCTPpQkMUCVPpZa7F11u/E9qcjhKQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrudejjedggeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhtgfgggfukfffvffosehtqhhmtd hhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhho thdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfeffjeetvdelgeefieeivdetveeijefhtd ehgedttdetteejtdetgfeuhfektedtnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpthif ihhtthgvrhdrtghomhdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvd ehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehm nhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D8F18108005C for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:03:06 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.20.0.2.21\)) Message-Id: <16E86FF2-6CD0-4949-A294-D5EA35694A55@mnot.net> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 13:03:03 +1100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.20.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Feedback for I-D CSS X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 02:03:20 -0000 Someone on Twitter identified a problem with the I-D CSS on ietf.org: https://twitter.com/taralx/status/1336330944601460744 Besides the immediate issue, I see a significant secondary one: there = isn't any clear feedback / issue tracking mechanism for the documents = under ietf.org/archive/.=20 /archive/id/ returns a raw directory listing of I-Ds; /archive/ takes a = _very_ long time to load (it timed out for me), and of course / is the = IETF home page, where the only option is 'contact' that lists a number = of e-mail addresses that might or might not be relevant. I don't think it's reasonable to have feedback disappear into mail = aliases or cryptic mailing lists; modern practice is that you should be = able to open a bug and track its progress, which implies that the I-D = CSS needs its own repository and issue queue.=20 Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Dec 8 19:29:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1B73A08EB for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:29:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fBvUFB4YkOpK for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:29:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F223D3A08E7 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id u18so756112lfd.9 for ; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 19:29:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TvrrGchbCqCYobDw8eQmT/ijdEveTOfvIZ4twBEBpQ4=; b=RuSqYYOQGcK/tJqt3hrVD+TExAN1Ez3bdHW/Y5tMsttYG70ppUasR9irQTflFRfnEx KQQbt3EyS1+BGlS7ch9Zxy6BrpYcAiqBqXO9lmCy1uPX7ZBATtiC9g7YSKYLou3sG3Kt 9o/sOIc2DE8Va4UtpyF9d8bupednqGqPe8eQ8UdURnD7g8V73vsOA3H5NN99bcNkGeRg iuuRyhVDiY1lUSNHA7mKgFqMwCltwa5TDrghuB1FRupWOI1dkj+kRCHWU5qbzn8t6Am+ Zv80WCCOfoZPYYLOyBoHFCX9wYAxowVvGNE2mdQ7VGxTCINKsL+tTEvi6+e/T8JaGh33 VqEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TvrrGchbCqCYobDw8eQmT/ijdEveTOfvIZ4twBEBpQ4=; b=HA2keNjqrWSDCuJmGHwUX10arr53rPCKd8SBF0HwX7aZKFZUwIxzVL70WBNJx2Lmbu SJnT/lSja7VUwt0mAtchxKqeZ1S6lXhMb/x6FHGKwGwnCxtgbuOohtDpbnYVN/3gJwUS kcQ7tFJCoYRcoHNO1XOovKzoFmIW6ydcnX5dtqiiktbDiHp9nNwou9Wkqcw4X3jPPZHK 1BMCeXIY9ZZFWKyYE1W1tzCe4krQrKUQIOqDUFvi5sq8mGfVhV/JHhrBHqt6nCSy1JcO Z9K1xNx234CoX+awwmL1uD3ZznXixuUX4WdHvilJpf1HayoQBdXSA4pTAAFMURPdtIUR kU+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531+E9nKQ84XYeI/L2HLD6fKxgnJDa/NJL+5oI/Q2sXv1AOp8Ytq 2EJprk/zilXevEOlJRKBsxu495PJ51pZmlp+bX9BEw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+pVBMvCzU6uocvCzY7FgeT4U4YCdDnaxlNBERpGLuZLeYKErA0HmGQUJIz/DsOBQZObgXZ6W6R9lzbcEwC8M= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5208:: with SMTP id a8mr260078lfl.206.1607484568020; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 19:29:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> <20201209013007.358B82939817@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20201209013007.358B82939817@ary.qy> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:28:51 -0800 Message-ID: To: John Levine Cc: tools-discuss , Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a8b9a405b5ffaa0f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 03:29:32 -0000 --000000000000a8b9a405b5ffaa0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I wonder if this is just habit. I used to submit .txt and then I started submitting .txt and .txml and now I usually submit .xml -- though note that the latter is slower because it needs to generate the .txt. Perhaps some gentle nudging through the UI would help? -Ekr On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 5:30 PM John Levine wrote: > In article <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> you write: > >Is .TXT submission legacy? > >I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future. > > It's not going away but we're going to give people much stronger hints > to submit XML if you have it. > > In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said they edit > in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit that. > Huh? > > R's, > John > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > --000000000000a8b9a405b5ffaa0f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I wonder if this is just habit. I used to submit .txt= and then I started submitting .txt and .txml and now I usually submit .xml= -- though note that the latter is slower because it needs to generate the = .txt. Perhaps some gentle nudging through the UI would help?
=
-Ekr


On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 5:30 PM John= Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrot= e:
In article &l= t;2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> you write: >Is .TXT submission legacy?
>I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future.

It's not going away but we're going to give people much stronger hi= nts
to submit XML if you have it.

In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said they edit in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit that.
Huh?

R's,
John

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--000000000000a8b9a405b5ffaa0f-- From nobody Tue Dec 8 19:33:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779C63A08E7 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:33:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fSLzUvP-2IX2; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.110] (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87B033A03EE; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:33:05 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-0C4711B9-2FD9-4653-97C8-FE2B84B173AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 16:33:03 +1300 Message-Id: <97627843-B908-4007-989B-242CABFE0762@ietf.org> References: Cc: John Levine , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18B92) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 03:33:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail-0C4711B9-2FD9-4653-97C8-FE2B84B173AB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 9/12/2020, at 4:29 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I wonder if this is just habit. I used to submit .txt and then I started s= ubmitting .txt and .txml and now I usually submit .xml -- though note that t= he latter is slower because it needs to generate the .txt. Perhaps some gent= le nudging through the UI would help? Yes indeed! - that=E2=80=99s exactly what we=E2=80=99re discussing. John an= d I are part way through writing up an analysis of the survey results and wh= at responses might be appropriate.=20 (sent from my phone) --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director +64 21 678840 >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 5:30 PM John Levine wrote: >> In article <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> you write: >> >Is .TXT submission legacy? >> >I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future. >>=20 >> It's not going away but we're going to give people much stronger hints >> to submit XML if you have it. >>=20 >> In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said they edit >> in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit that. >> Huh? >>=20 >> R's, >> John >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>=20 >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --Apple-Mail-0C4711B9-2FD9-4653-97C8-FE2B84B173AB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 9/12/2020, at 4:29 PM, Eric Rescorla <e= kr@rtfm.com> wrote:

<= div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
I wonder if this is just habi= t. I used to submit .txt and then I started submitting .txt and .txml and no= w I usually submit .xml -- though note that the latter is slower because it n= eeds to generate the .txt. Perhaps some gentle nudging through the UI would h= elp?

Yes indeed! - &nb= sp;that=E2=80=99s exactly what we=E2=80=99re discussing. John and I are part= way through writing up an analysis of the survey results and what responses= might be appropriate. 

(sent from my phone)

-- 
Jay Daley
IE= TF Executive Director
+64 21 678840


-Ekr


On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 5:30 PM John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
In article <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666= -EC9889C81462@tzi.org> you write:
>Is .TXT submission legacy?
>I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future.

It's not going away but we're going to give people much stronger hints
to submit XML if you have it.

In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said they edit
in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit that.
Huh?

R's,
John

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ie= tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss=

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
___________________________________________________________
= Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf= .org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.iet= f.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org=
= --Apple-Mail-0C4711B9-2FD9-4653-97C8-FE2B84B173AB-- From nobody Tue Dec 8 19:34:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BCF3A091C for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:34:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MUae5OxlBuCC for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:34:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB9C83A08F6 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id y22so180167ljn.9 for ; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 19:34:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c4hOhTGSrsyH0JFju/iFk6FHeEaVvfcm/pqR2dsvlQE=; b=In+kZpn+uEb+uHX31wS9KDSuDFuS2CJp7EWo21qxBy95kR6Wc6ytUwn8RaoTDqH3/F /ZEiwO04oFuFH2ezvYeLxvQMVGdVLFyyfcERPjhLpOlTGx0n6NuD/YthJdg8xH4wG0Cd gfl3gtjmMpwHk7vzWkYrycrjGPmpSbiQFIuWnSp3eMxaC7Cn/MpyN2mMNxEFPAwtjbKQ jYT3HZr2W2UimMfxDoFdTl+TtrZkQhsgEZRQQcxM0vgGQdrTXqQW0P+7J7UZa116U9Sv Vmu/OQOHz4TwOW5PmK74h76cqn5LxE8S8nw1yXWDNsexT5OeQR6uUrHemhnPCZSOJisj V84g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c4hOhTGSrsyH0JFju/iFk6FHeEaVvfcm/pqR2dsvlQE=; b=LZ5aM5tDGvM2z6KAHpYk8xcJG8/Ig7aLwOP+hRCwKnf+2ZWQa+Csho710xIc7vxjK9 pRgF5BJtsPBUp7HUZvvM66+ZeiyMRQdkG7XZJnu+kTKjNCk/lknilrQ2zJQj7mHbrRId lFcJQeViTGDvNnSZfEtQCZGwVrljM6mwSYshpJsvbPn5zJU1n87Lyz3/OcCKqpb7aUWf 1nQK2sXSwCE6noVkJHPosfyRKlBbDh1rprsZ5NOzFkeDIQmuWqg8/WPssO/TwGP4VRGO UnRZDtks93cRZAO9vdSRbInjksb5P0jy5vz4Rer/bTYk5wraNDYx2W5gaRB1OrRbzd4S bohg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323CD5pIbeYIQrzZO+mJ8kTJRCjIWUWA/Gm1zNu3GNVUlRoA3jt dfFmjL4o6fS4ASnRD2BAFxwnr307v30MZxbuvdL1GQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzSBwoSe43pAr4Y8Z3emOXjbIjs+Q0xpowb1qoaO0BfRV0HgDyiCDIjIqvGy9c/xKfLRNBFJm5q8Pot7oR1Ez4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1214:: with SMTP id i20mr174079lja.324.1607484870724; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 19:34:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> <20201209013007.358B82939817@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20201209013007.358B82939817@ary.qy> From: Warren Kumari Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 22:33:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: John Levine Cc: Tools Discussion , Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 03:34:35 -0000 On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 8:30 PM John Levine wrote: > > In article <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> you write: > >Is .TXT submission legacy? > >I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future. > > It's not going away but we're going to give people much stronger hints > to submit XML if you have it. > > In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said they edit > in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit that. > Huh? My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate / scratch text, etc.; it's not always ready for sharing... W > > R's, > John > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --=20 The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by = the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra From nobody Tue Dec 8 19:48:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5BF3A098D for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:48:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UyxBVfqFcxom; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:48:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.110] (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0505B3A0982; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 19:48:06 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 16:48:03 +1300 Message-Id: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> References: Cc: John Levine , Carsten Bormann , Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: To: Warren Kumari X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18B92) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 03:48:08 -0000 > On 9/12/2020, at 4:34 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 8:30 PM John Levine wrot= e: >>=20 >> In article <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> you write: >>> Is .TXT submission legacy? >>> I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future. >>=20 >> It's not going away but we're going to give people much stronger hints >> to submit XML if you have it. >>=20 >> In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said they edit >> in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit that. >> Huh? >=20 > My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate / scratch text, etc.; > it's not always ready for sharing... So I=E2=80=99m clear - are those comments etc stripped out automatically in t= he conversion to TXT or do you do it by hand? (sent from my phone) --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director +64 21 678840 > W >=20 >>=20 >> R's, >> John >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >>=20 >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by= the > complexities of his own making. > -- E. W. Dijkstra >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Tue Dec 8 20:00:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41893A0B80 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:00:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 09 Dec 2020 05:00:15 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <16E86FF2-6CD0-4949-A294-D5EA35694A55@mnot.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 05:00:16 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16E86FF2-6CD0-4949-A294-D5EA35694A55@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:k/Teg0VMNf0/enSr35IOG7uXtL17NPdYUZsOLRJLRS4XxEHmXyS HsAO0mfESq+eHJonQkktSqVpwLi9GlVYc0w3VVwW4bdaMNHl6nDThZcAc1Ydqzm3VnafMX9 dTmpwnjM4+1S8y5FIIabE9dNZJSquGUaoT4fuMWl5+mCfD+36o7ndr80YXOIMvk7WYuiNbz X5mfENg7LZlG/saP+BiHw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dDwC278ObJs=:b7qgRFlSaZLIvUS0tDMFkQ d9O1cUBQN8ah+Ej27g5OJd43WB8N8BiziRD9VmOeZKuUpsCCAS6I8Hg4S9iiBeNjSvR3Gw96k rFc2xXnqUiygHTXemTW6KRmwD3CYzqE/WmOTQ+lQWkdfrvwVsllBHAJWZ5820d97f6d4NFuKi OpgYNdC6dlDdLAVdoOw397dxx1811UCacC/oAI7M9mQDFINI0Pe1xbuFwbvjcsKwZAanykUhv Vi2zH0VqGMCzKZm0mlFFkIfUpDDv+8cRuhP0MowRyf301DKfcss5hOd4FGJJ0/R8dmKE5s+0S onpQ0sVlfWVweq/QMp6PsWnaB5NZhq8C36Ivf1zTrN2FMy4KLJhSHqYHH4PJufIevoAxxTd9g tb94gjxeBkar2cWSvPv3wIDjKFlP0uwVOmiyQr1YNhCIaUuCLJTo8hG4wP0hKuNaWl/nUIxJg NpjB0iR+usi9Tq1jArJjHtND9tnll5pmnqRjDBKVQFvLzCrdvlOc38KBhzyeL8btrEl8FB9hJ 9twPWsZG7ve8dgvtvB8+9TvSrYaTbK02jcnpx5jRZJ6aqpZCnE7AxJGZ7fGKaIeTDGMXGIAWf eXziWEbWtnjMuCwCcH8vpekAMUq4yT9/vaLy2SozEdU+NqH+NGvsDPNpOgWk2SFAOAAaExZkH d69dDEcVXVwKM40OhP/bNn8Q42nKNPOc78bf9nYrz7BnJ2wan6xntbP7iG1SyFR7yP7UO6yww CArzo3FMF3vMcR3kB+f5NK+K+iowvQkfkAWV6j6FrZdmcexWY0cP2w9yfy2gnDUusylV6xyNC Y7JeVTqDb/nLeuuIsytYLUodqg3Ej25bEMFl91DUu2rfD7+kvp5u3k1VcygLBbA+hveawyUSe b6uxEH955P1JVuhe8RUEaSVxpUIA6Gvl5NwVsGqIwbUsPIVCLqjyG9UPNeCDUH2yTgR1+NjU7 wNbXdNedsaQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Feedback for I-D CSS X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 04:00:34 -0000 Am 09.12.2020 um 03:03 schrieb Mark Nottingham: > Someone on Twitter identified a problem with the I-D CSS on ietf.org: > https://twitter.com/taralx/status/1336330944601460744 > > Besides the immediate issue, I see a significant secondary one: there is= n't any clear feedback / issue tracking mechanism for the documents under = ietf.org/archive/. > > /archive/id/ returns a raw directory listing of I-Ds; /archive/ takes a = _very_ long time to load (it timed out for me), and of course / is the IET= F home page, where the only option is 'contact' that lists a number of e-m= ail addresses that might or might not be relevant. > > I don't think it's reasonable to have feedback disappear into mail alias= es or cryptic mailing lists; modern practice is that you should be able to= open a bug and track its progress, which implies that the I-D CSS needs i= ts own repository and issue queue. > ... There's . Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Dec 8 20:06:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261683A0962 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:06:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QSqGelLp-ROH for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F7123A0AB3 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id a9so963608lfh.2 for ; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 20:06:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yOUg5T8OZtTvBx2ApRy12qnm9bK6ik1A/NRETkgWcvQ=; b=K/KVkDz3Om+5XGPHJM7wXhtbKlewBundJGw4z+e+zS2RKulMkn+JyiGcH57yX2T+gY DulBSecIHOcSNiZhYDOq1+nEbxm1t8bK99R7mqooHFAdYKExPvEp+NIo+g24SHx8Y3Y6 9csD2IR7sVwj//D6X9iZLcMicxlZt/ObcuiB4GpliKgCv4f+v27kmqGikqJxB3ktshCO z18tEgh973ZruGjlQWUF/1KY/sCmZh2JraltQkEJdYNI50CfS02+s+Z5VCB4xQgMA9g8 KhVc5slK6LfOAEDOgX+6Ce8zhTw4EP6KJrrsgo+xAKibfDoxMX9hEvsAumEz3YTgtIiw DwGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yOUg5T8OZtTvBx2ApRy12qnm9bK6ik1A/NRETkgWcvQ=; b=sgbW4udQhkkL6bl7mxqLuqH4dh6crlP9pTmtXSLykuO/F0+fCcfaozDNfoRIzck6U6 6b85KD5H5au/P7Ba2SPHQgAkBWzwVZEhxfesb+KHq/MDi8o8gJVFSUT9JLsW9RQsASWH uj6LM+wT4yToNHQbRpr3EeK3RlqP/5xX7hP/XwR/HQoVgk6UqcXS3TT3473wNhhT4G5z thT2QB3C3quVdCM+Dp0KZ9yuetKC8+Gj+B9EaYrGcnb1cyM2+uyTfDr499WDYsQ5g+6k fMp6JJ0HQkzCEm7UHVFLSY0gtndq2g4d0WeHj1L7Vc1GqM85mCFm2a5H2yvp2Yo5dw22 QHTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530mOqPgkrjc2WGkpxmWfvoP4+AT1mFGeQVswNZlezYfoWXNPkId lVbRm6Uv9YieI8dRiJnns4ufHKv1dMfuf9l24U/YWg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwlY5/HUUMzaBxVOtwfxbU+6JM5NFBn0H2ntJ2uxZIq1Rtb9j3+kZA3ZLWa3fVsw3/FNouLndU+0AzY1sAgP+Q= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:41ca:: with SMTP id d10mr284140lfi.419.1607486764521; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 20:06:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> From: Warren Kumari Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 23:05:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Carsten Bormann , John Levine , Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000094b2ab05b6002de6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 04:06:11 -0000 --00000000000094b2ab05b6002de6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:48 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > > > On 9/12/2020, at 4:34 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 8:30 PM John Levine w= rote: > >> > >> In article <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> you write: > >>> Is .TXT submission legacy? > >>> I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future. > >> > >> It's not going away but we're going to give people much stronger hints > >> to submit XML if you have it. > >> > >> In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said they edit > >> in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit that. > >> Huh? > > > > My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate / scratch text, etc.; > > it's not always ready for sharing... > > So I=E2=80=99m clear - are those comments etc stripped out automatically = in the > conversion to TXT or do you do it by hand? > > (sent from my phone) Stripped out when converting. I also run xml2rfc to confirm that the XML is correct, and so just submit the text version. I *do* send the XML to the RFC Ed once all approved though... W > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > +64 21 678840 > > > W > > > >> > >> R's, > >> John > >> > >> ___________________________________________________________ > >> Tools-discuss mailing list > >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > >> > >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > >> > >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > > > > > > -- > > The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused= by the > > complexities of his own making. > > -- E. W. Dijkstra > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list > > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > -- Perhaps they really do strive for incomprehensibility in their specs. After all, when the liturgy was in Latin, the laity knew their place. -- Michael Padlipsky --00000000000094b2ab05b6002de6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:48 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:


> On 9/12/2020, at 4:34 PM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 8:30 PM John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>
>> In article <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org= > you write:
>>> Is .TXT submission legacy?
>>> I was thinking that will be available in the indefinite future= .
>>
>> It's not going away but we're going to give people much st= ronger hints
>> to submit XML if you have it.
>>
>> In Jay's recent survey, a remarkable number of people said the= y edit
>> in markdown or directly in XML, then render into text and submit t= hat.
>> Huh?
>
> My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate / scratch text, etc.;<= br> > it's not always ready for sharing...

So I=E2=80=99m clear - are those comments etc stripped out automatically in= the conversion to TXT or do you do it by hand?

(sent from my phone)

Stripped out when converting. I also run xml2rfc to confirm that the XM= L is correct, and so just submit the text version. I *do* send the XML to t= he RFC Ed once all approved though...

W



<= br>
--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
+64 21 678840

> W
>
>>
>> R's,
>> John
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-= discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/to= ols-discuss
>>
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.or= g
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>
>
>
> --
> The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confuse= d by the
> complexities of his own making.
>=C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-disc= uss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-= discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

--
Perhaps they really do = strive for incomprehensibility in their specs.
After all, when the litur= gy was in Latin, the laity knew their place.
-- Michael Padlipsky
--00000000000094b2ab05b6002de6-- From nobody Tue Dec 8 20:28:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 219943A0B2B for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:28:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=YnCQCNH7; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Vf5cB5Li Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZyQod-pr52iW for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18C713A0B20 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 39240 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2020 04:28:25 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=9946.5fd05269.k2012; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=WeuULXEo0MRJvxa8IYAtIhwDoStoGdVkh6a5ei6+w7U=; b=YnCQCNH7+IpT/BZxcA9wmUWKFgcTFxuCZEGL5kuuoSp+si0xagihyAgXZJQuyf7cXlyruEE0b+Ip15zAS2E7s5VQcj3eh1vsYSBWOWP5I5Cjekk8b/w+4mIlhDshn/o6BMPFJXdlHMetXAdqChtqlubuiVP3UzpsAJzOLVcPPdt7FhgTXrhWFP2eGVxlmQDsh9tMI4i0uB9dScnTaqgCoSKhGL5+XDkqJqlb4B6mF6Fezt7HxTu5bC2bfHk7zHwEA+l6cNyas8e13XlS7AsKbKiPVYnMnjGs4CBk43kc9ws8SWxyaUz1VHQbNFN+I+zlJ5LFl+IUQFi05oGRkaf33w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=9946.5fd05269.k2012; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=WeuULXEo0MRJvxa8IYAtIhwDoStoGdVkh6a5ei6+w7U=; b=Vf5cB5LiZ63ld+eV47NgU1uHzYQparmnchZR7V+B6UAqnXTSm8w2vZVTwAndbUtbnfvFKLWQB2O3VdxdVBsiA2fA43w8FpWztsXmj8GUaA2iik60Dmo8ZXtThl5N1vPXlO9LvOCK5ZIi5KAH976xc6cMA6/4ccRSxBWmLTi2iG1ofLn1YwGVI6H1GuZKuEz6Qb7v0RiCySbvHnSi7JlMSWVycdxEAp79syXJyV4meqrLVQjdXP5BD3O8ta9ErDaWAgGOmjayoqg510xeigwd9FuvUy358Y7SJN3bClYe/WXwwMu7L3AhAzOCpmhcd7OeDDH9TKkX2Z/urMjITwYsDw== Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 09 Dec 2020 04:28:24 -0000 Date: 8 Dec 2020 23:28:24 -0500 Message-ID: <46a24bc8-1c2c-b4a8-aba-2318c7232c27@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Eric Rescorla" Cc: "tools-discuss" In-Reply-To: References: <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> <20201209013007.358B82939817@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] submission formats, Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 04:28:33 -0000 On Tue, 8 Dec 2020, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I wonder if this is just habit. I used to submit .txt and then I started > submitting .txt and .txml and now I usually submit .xml -- though note that > the latter is slower because it needs to generate the .txt. Perhaps some > gentle nudging through the UI would help? Jay and I had the same thought. In fact you need only submit one of txt or xml but the submission web site wouldn't lead you to assume that. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Tue Dec 8 21:24:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED1C3A0C1D for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:24:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6JQo23i4iErG for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E1D63A0C8B for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CrQTC1dQYzyT0; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 06:24:15 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 06:24:14 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss , Robert Sparks X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629184254.7794321-724bb2634e43848120431aa338613d91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4DEC0D9B-DFEA-4D2E-A260-3D629545DA00@tzi.org> References: <160735048347.21240.1003511101868024192@ietfa.amsl.com> <41D0AF3B-7A92-4A20-8A89-A667230FB465@tzi.org> <86c081bd-f4fa-001a-9bc2-9e69445db630@levkowetz.com> <3A35451F-6B5C-447F-A014-902265D7B241@tzi.org> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 05:24:35 -0000 > On 2020-12-08, at 15:52, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: >=20 > Hi Carsten, >=20 > On 2020-12-08 15:18, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Hi Henrik, >>=20 >>> On 2020-12-08, at 14:21, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: >>>=20 >>> In order to use \p{L} and \p{Lu} the code also has to be changed to = use >>> the external 'regex' module. >>=20 >> Thanks, I didn=E2=80=99t know that. >> I thought I knew a bit about regexes and their support in various = platforms; >> I=E2=80=99m seriously stunned. >>=20 >> So, would adding a mechanical substitution of >>=20 >> regex. for re. >>=20 >> within extract_authors (plus adding the import) to the set I gave >> solve the problem? >=20 > Probably, yes; but one would want to run a comprehensive test round to > be sure that there are no side effects of the change. Indeed. (A feature that doesn=E2=80=99t have tests doesn=E2=80=99t = exist.) Doing that (and writing some additional tests for beyond-ASCII = author/org names) sounds like a great little Codesprint project. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Dec 9 06:33:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D753A16A2; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 06:33:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0R1mxoaY_987; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 06:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65F933A16A1; 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9 Dec 2020 14:45:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=ced8.5fd0e2f4.k2012; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=kSA1Tt9rK0lmkn1TsjA7XJHqYhhfwjW4Lt2YCv2Aa+0=; b=dKThVRAYZRrgW+2ksDDX9qfuxDkldE5PE3LhxEN10TEVHNbjzvBCY0rHTriBb2ULU2vtKPnb+PH9R+Tc5bFxoNqvVAFu5DnZdkpnP4bIpPzJTL1nK+6T+Dm4ma9da1s8xojy7hlEeOLiT277hJE/RTSqK2NwrrdoL2vMH5ajP8XYdjV9o4cudaS81jCvTeXL74rtrukOaB3Hi/9NkA9H8tr9h/O6xKgQJbgLNHPvOGy7BOW6ZviHTnrSHjySsHdtUoFWsI6/HbsEtYgqCTqI9lc/DcqhYIuXORO4MUbORuUxxd185MIf6v4mE2AKLxTtXY1tUEAhh8SIbWj6Ac2xAA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=ced8.5fd0e2f4.k2012; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=kSA1Tt9rK0lmkn1TsjA7XJHqYhhfwjW4Lt2YCv2Aa+0=; b=Qbrh2ZPaytEvYUG6hR7EHhuFuxmMkhNI2fc1Uv50Hq2CnKpj50ixKOo7lj+3KrLmpnTMrS86zWxjLShDV02tC5TNntzi6CdskDd0CFjV57eqz8dOIQsbovgcbbKiWUyX9jVkG5QKlE807fd4LVwBC6SVbWPvD2tCFeMoxWQ6Yr9x/az3VWvnBlXsu9lIbZpJwm+i0dkAHFV9g1XysLjirGPUIzlBGkQo7vGZwUbPg49WV6UkS3/WvFP+0Ad5+PQ8HMEOxLoXGF32+6MeEXLaKAVZVdOozBt6oK+ZqeRx50kh4eGEnFt3C7ufmEOmFATNA+UENW9hTEOO7yMEIiNjPA== Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 09 Dec 2020 14:45:08 -0000 Date: 9 Dec 2020 09:45:07 -0500 Message-ID: <8bbdd7f0-5d40-5a15-da81-68cd78618eec@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Salz, Rich" , "Warren Kumari" , "Jay Daley" Cc: "Carsten Bormann" , "Tools Discussion" In-Reply-To: References: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 14:45:13 -0000 >> My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate / scratch text, etc.; >> it's not always ready for sharing... > > Do we know of anyone else who does this? My inclination is to say that this is not a workflow that should be prioritized. Agreed. In this rather odd case it'd be OK to send txt until the embarassing comments are edited out and then send the XML. At this point we're interested in what the RPC gets once the document is thrown over the wall for publication. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Wed Dec 9 06:52:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26CF3A0D9D for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 06:52:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, RCVD_IN_RP_RNBL=1.31, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2zkAiMbd-l9r for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 06:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F6913A0D93 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 06:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.32.60.95] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 0B9En2PE075884 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 07:49:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.95] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Tools Discussion" Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 06:51:56 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_F3566C8C-F381-4A85-B553-45477B32EE25_=" Embedded-HTML: [{"HTML":[342, 860], "plain":[45, 239], "uuid":"310E7F4E-5023-47BB-83A5-607A3F3D8A8C"}] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 14:52:01 -0000 --=_MailMate_F3566C8C-F381-4A85-B553-45477B32EE25_= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On 9 Dec 2020, at 6:33, Salz, Rich wrote: > > My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate / scratch text, > etc.; >> it's not always ready for sharing... > > Do we know of anyone else who does this? My inclination is to say > that this is not a workflow that should be prioritized. I absolutely do this, and I know that others do as well. Near the top of my XML is often a list of things yet to do, sometimes with snarky comments. There are sometimes comments in the middle of the doc with . Having said that, I agree with Rich that we should not prioritize for that case. It would still be better for people to submit XML, and those of us who want to hide comments might need to take an extra tooling step to remove it from temporary XML that we submit. --Paul Hoffman --=_MailMate_F3566C8C-F381-4A85-B553-45477B32EE25_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= p dir=3D"auto">On 9 Dec 2020, at 6:33, Salz, Rich wrote:

> My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate= / scratch text, etc.;
> it's not always ready for sharing...

= =C2=A0

= Do we know of anyone else who does this?=C2=A0 My inclination is to say t= hat this is not a workflow that should be prioritized.

I absolutely do this, and I know that others= do as well. Near the top of my XML is often a list of things yet to do, = sometimes with snarky comments. There are sometimes comments in the middl= e of the doc with <!-- ##### do this ##### -->.

Having said that, I agree with Rich that we should not pr= ioritize for that case. It would still be better for people to submit XML= , and those of us who want to hide comments might need to take an extra t= ooling step to remove it from temporary XML that we submit.

--Paul Hoffman

--=_MailMate_F3566C8C-F381-4A85-B553-45477B32EE25_=-- From nobody Wed Dec 9 07:49:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFDD3A0E56 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 07:49:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OYnko5RRD_1u for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 07:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102e.google.com (mail-pj1-x102e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B19D73A08C5 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 07:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102e.google.com with SMTP id j13so1160490pjz.3 for ; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 07:49:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yAUfVzsRsUOAEe7S/GQKdpETUHvu0g5yfZ+d7ZLE1I4=; b=FUsca6df1yX5AuNgCHSQpqsuiK2lCSOKI3qroUCVfrNHIsq5wEqYytPNjC6d/lJr8Z im8FXen2fCAL0AJ2kBg/3MuZKb1EF3Wy1wzIlze1Lvlt6FdRWL3VnsmeqWBr1w5Cwqh5 yna355XAL/FfO1rpnQGwV/QY33HxFpx2jEvUXAi0w5QsW4ioSWhIYilg5LPwp7cxVGKe YH5mI01/lDT1FQdIiAZIyXBtp0uA2KGfs8CVWgX9CZUx5kQP1JXxrOGWlapT4MKmTCNI /FERr9X1uWTvTEitp0gqimuqEI+ZXL7Wa7VsLmaXk8dJfYhwAY/IGUgbna0EeGZa/NTy zuIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yAUfVzsRsUOAEe7S/GQKdpETUHvu0g5yfZ+d7ZLE1I4=; b=GdJwyo5oxdcZ5tkQHnLdauIICFzCrbZJ1I7Op7/cxFy1mZQI/PM1Y7eIdntQ1bfma0 EO77cevyZXPa3cOeJ4IamhAudh7e5/uN1Y0o/rVJSDgIj8pzayKUSpUZvFnE25rrWR/l hxVF/WCCpQD/K29b/JM36BA0D9rnVUGjymn0YCv+tuC97bd40UA4GV92q+C11diy6Rf6 z6mKr+5gNECbav//FVF1coz0RYt7sNOKOahDoUGT6RiG+1Cst/g91pVQ3nciWgDUeyCJ eosEFMXKz/yts3A5J0gUFTFd0PtujYxy2aFPShvoDtKWkSK5pFVRIrCpcwskSh/WV0Wk A9wA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533AfoYDt1rplK3hBca66XRKhXoYrutOvDctCtQb31iegb3iPmvH +B//DOq/YyjO7Dq5oszaIovYyam1iO9H3+ZsEVQDnxcsr1VbGg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynN/f/WWic/UJM6UbFlT2clQHJhGBRZ84p5F5fvAMXP065Q6BZOuE1KNHZxlQadU55FlpyD5dzljYOUf1lLHA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:394:: with SMTP id ga20mr2801120pjb.128.1607528944024; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 07:49:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 07:48:27 -0800 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000acd0d305b609ffcd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 15:49:07 -0000 --000000000000acd0d305b609ffcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 6:52 AM Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 9 Dec 2020, at 6:33, Salz, Rich wrote: > > > My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate / scratch text, etc.; > > it's not always ready for sharing... > > > > Do we know of anyone else who does this? My inclination is to say that > this is not a workflow that should be prioritized. > > I absolutely do this, and I know that others do as well. Near the top of > my XML is often a list of things yet to do, sometimes with snarky comments. > There are sometimes comments in the middle of the doc with . > > Having said that, I agree with Rich that we should not prioritize for that > case. It would still be better for people to submit XML, and those of us > who want to hide comments might need to take an extra tooling step to > remove it from temporary XML that we submit. > I used to leave comments in my docs when I worked in XML but my documents are generally in some kind of open source code repo, so I expected the comments to be public even if I (lazily) submitted txt. So, my sense is this is a niche workflow. -Ekr --Paul Hoffman > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > --000000000000acd0d305b609ffcd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 6:52 AM Paul H= offman <paul.= hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:

On 9 Dec 2020, at 6:33, Salz, Rich wrote:

> My XML has lots of internal comments, candidate= / scratch text, etc.;
> it's not always ready for sharing...

=C2=A0

Do we know of anyone else who does this?=C2=A0 My inclination is to = say that this is not a workflow that should be prioritized.

I absolutely do this, and I know that others d= o as well. Near the top of my XML is often a list of things yet to do, some= times with snarky comments. There are sometimes comments in the middle of t= he doc with <!-- ##### do this ##### -->.

Having said that, I agree with Rich that we should not prio= ritize for that case. It would still be better for people to submit XML, an= d those of us who want to hide comments might need to take an extra tooling= step to remove it from temporary XML that we submit.

=
I used to leave comments in my docs when I worked in XML = but my documents are generally in some kind of open source code repo, so I = expected the comments to be public even if I (lazily) submitted txt. So, my= sense is this is a niche workflow.

-Ekr
=

--Paul Hoffman

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu= ss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--000000000000acd0d305b609ffcd-- From nobody Wed Dec 9 08:28:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BAB3A0EC4; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 08:28:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7-liiRstnX7y; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 08:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52C873A0EA6; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 08:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CrjC05FFmzyWv; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 17:27:56 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <8bbdd7f0-5d40-5a15-da81-68cd78618eec@taugh.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 17:27:56 +0100 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Warren Kumari , Jay Daley , Tools Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629224076.228115-e5762fd5921119d16f908aa33663725a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <78751089-654C-4A51-8801-CEBACE5B7E60@tzi.org> References: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> <8bbdd7f0-5d40-5a15-da81-68cd78618eec@taugh.com> To: "John R. Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 16:28:02 -0000 On 2020-12-09, at 15:45, John R Levine wrote: >=20 > At this point we're interested in what the RPC gets once the document = is thrown over the wall for publication. Some of us. Some of us are actually very interested in what happens to an I-D during = its long journey through the system. The RFC editor queue is one = high-activity step at the end that we have to get right, but the overall = quality of the IETF=E2=80=99s output highly depends on a productive = I-D-stage process(*). I believe that, now that the worst parts of the V3 transition are over = at the RPC side, we slowly need to direct more of our attention to that = aspect as well. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) Obviously, that was what Marshal Rose and the cast of thousands had = in mind for RFC 2629. That aspect has never been neglected, but the RPC = needs of course dominated them during the transition. Time to re-focus. From nobody Wed Dec 9 09:28:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9A13A102A for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:28:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eQlHEged_AWs for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0575C3A101B for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:51652 helo=tannat.local) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kn3GF-0001kt-5E; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 09:28:19 -0800 To: Carsten Bormann , "John R. Levine" References: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> <8bbdd7f0-5d40-5a15-da81-68cd78618eec@taugh.com> <78751089-654C-4A51-8801-CEBACE5B7E60@tzi.org> Cc: Tools Discussion From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <5bc3d61e-61ec-afbd-e553-3fdc3a454303@levkowetz.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 18:28:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <78751089-654C-4A51-8801-CEBACE5B7E60@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Tl0crOvfxSBMvB2Ib91ht6J8I3fBJL5ag" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, johnl@taugh.com, cabo@tzi.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 17:28:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Tl0crOvfxSBMvB2Ib91ht6J8I3fBJL5ag Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="8mR0nvIVlTl4qKodR6mi2hjpaqTdJvJig"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Carsten Bormann , "John R. Levine" Cc: Tools Discussion Message-ID: <5bc3d61e-61ec-afbd-e553-3fdc3a454303@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) References: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> <8bbdd7f0-5d40-5a15-da81-68cd78618eec@taugh.com> <78751089-654C-4A51-8801-CEBACE5B7E60@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <78751089-654C-4A51-8801-CEBACE5B7E60@tzi.org> --8mR0nvIVlTl4qKodR6mi2hjpaqTdJvJig Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-12-09 17:27, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-12-09, at 15:45, John R Levine wrote: >>=20 >> At this point we're interested in what the RPC gets once the >> document is thrown over the wall for publication. >=20 > Some of us. >=20 > Some of us are actually very interested in what happens to an I-D > during its long journey through the system. The RFC editor queue is > one high-activity step at the end that we have to get right, but the > overall quality of the IETF=E2=80=99s output highly depends on a produc= tive > I-D-stage process(*). >=20 > I believe that, now that the worst parts of the V3 transition are > over at the RPC side, we slowly need to direct more of our attention > to that aspect as well. I strongly agree. > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > (*) Obviously, that was what Marshal Rose and the cast of thousands > had in mind for RFC 2629. That aspect has never been neglected, but > the RPC needs of course dominated them during the transition. Time > to re-focus. Ditto. Henrik --8mR0nvIVlTl4qKodR6mi2hjpaqTdJvJig-- --Tl0crOvfxSBMvB2Ib91ht6J8I3fBJL5ag Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl/RCSwACgkQTptXS4+7 FxppIhAAsAAmzlijjdXODEDUDfgrnPnmAB2YuQE8bcQJGAjHGwp2zovul0c7SjYw f7RruCieAXJlofcRJtOvGqigQEpO9LyMHpJl++5Jg7hE1OgN5acpNzryfuOzJ18i xYuE2ija3tQcwXO9Gw1SLgkCyGy4V7qqZWSjzgKZHy5ThWXhoXdetIsdadq5HajR BxyDdPPonBf+rPZFe8u4ACe1kxojOOAI2gLjkm8P4gp+7hHJZCRvmRXhT+tiNRso fggZ32Des1ej6udMQOsVcssgsFZmpssG5LLiRdWzVRs8h3tU4ElxAxoHG46Hrj5v gwToF7puokBLt2NiOpPsml0MGQ2vm/pR+q0VjrilWPa09QJiTb5lz/qI4LPQLuOE C1i/iYLRBvJjpjf0Qnu38D1DwB8YX/Hvtum5wDdOl70raE1klooAvNXkJ4bLmDbO 3/43rGjIBCaUN9+stvQ4pfZkY9WuGcCY0SmpDl9f0eYjyTfyjoxqJYnz2G2EUtv4 ptVv22cSwH0x6AUzihUE2rL5yYIg+nAdqyV2+0KWOQM5mP0VGKCfd3lMyQFrSkTY r40ldYm5DR1RWBDGcHZUmggQLNYzVYiaAPdQmLeE7q3UqDW2e2jQyKRShVdOYgWn yDcceVmZ8F6FfsIcIv36vcBqlaSAmaBlegdTJwDqvsbycABaBKQ= =TuL0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Tl0crOvfxSBMvB2Ib91ht6J8I3fBJL5ag-- From nobody Wed Dec 9 09:43:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6073A117F for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:43:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g4lNMN45pTus for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:43:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01A813A1764 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id l9so2659806wrt.13 for ; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 09:43:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ZTZv1X8F/UBk89s1ack4UNr98bI5/mr9zFnKnSeiLb0=; b=IA8/Rjv5Bk+HE5in6lXXABo6JcjXKpSAlxGme9dr3pQpmiVg2PNkkIOXaPurM9Jt75 tBPRo/zCqV2jVUWyC6fTn6F3z1exSf0lX8p3CLzy6/XCS2+s9NTQibdUVXbO/l/v1fEz uf+uJx2+mIl6256Ylt6PJv3haPm/+YwRzMPiL2qACz23px0EnIBUKijCG2IGo8nctVNn x/7JWY5mYfrbp7es2bX6ElrU0LHMDPCAdOQr5CO1Rooa/1kBy4/fGusQR6trzGjT4voa g6D9AL6Cj6k4Dro7I1ZJtakSXFuhVdTq8KD5PvEHc+h6jQB5KIfRxFMY55+yPmYFFqVY 5v/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ZTZv1X8F/UBk89s1ack4UNr98bI5/mr9zFnKnSeiLb0=; b=cM5JAWIhSg3kbow1H88LDp2jejN0JS44V8hl4zKAu8Ez+PnT79McDsJl9tBhaeN9yy IVVfT1cAKP9xmpcL79QDkC8HerjsZCq0+iHWLE0kRZ4MpWbXKIrIY2XdwbTyrJg3f8U4 B38qjgPAm0LyCfd04NQpQ0TMOrOp6kSQu089o/ngfNWIxIpQ1fs0OA0GPzExiTkadtaz foAqIEAeAuUsgx4CQxRpdHSLfaR5B2xq5lb01nyi4T/r0m4p5xWa56ZDmGwPq663eWNM fALcIlChl4Ys03pmZQoHxCiY3gUXAuDnTRWK7wFlzfjw6KwgtDgI7+MbhQiYzqu610Gv 1F6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53116PnphA7GzyIJpx3CkBpPWmgeQDfBQY7MXlV9T+jup4rvHU5Z cxSyKP7EjEf+EJvKAElAM7c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzotUupjfTltA24xaoHN2dzudzoo8t+PeW+fO6EakFdC0Mn1InxQTgAVve5Cyw0eIo5oixUcg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:8b4a:: with SMTP id v10mr3948759wra.212.1607535801245; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 09:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n17sm4422127wmc.33.2020.12.09.09.43.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Dec 2020 09:43:20 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <9D32A219-261A-44D9-8031-E64455613790@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_74220CB2-DD92-4FF9-A3FE-6284309CFCF1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:43:17 -0800 In-Reply-To: <46a24bc8-1c2c-b4a8-aba-2318c7232c27@taugh.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Eric Rescorla , tools-discuss To: John Levine References: <2B2E1BB3-6695-4652-8666-EC9889C81462@tzi.org> <20201209013007.358B82939817@ary.qy> <46a24bc8-1c2c-b4a8-aba-2318c7232c27@taugh.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] submission formats, Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 17:43:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_74220CB2-DD92-4FF9-A3FE-6284309CFCF1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Dec 8, 2020, at 8:28 PM, John R Levine wrote: >=20 > On Tue, 8 Dec 2020, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> I wonder if this is just habit. I used to submit .txt and then I = started >> submitting .txt and .txml and now I usually submit .xml -- though = note that >> the latter is slower because it needs to generate the .txt. Perhaps = some >> gentle nudging through the UI would help? >=20 > Jay and I had the same thought. In fact you need only submit one of = txt or xml but the submission web site wouldn't lead you to assume that. I have gotten into the habit of submitting the XML and TXT. I do = usually have things commented out, but nothing I wouldn=E2=80=99t want = to be public :-) Bob --Apple-Mail=_74220CB2-DD92-4FF9-A3FE-6284309CFCF1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl/RDLUACgkQrut0EXfn u6hOaggAlF5zMuTu5wSqgNrJvGfu8HvNqE1cvnxkPumebAMI4FlhPQgY+NYvXsl+ zhSZrh4vswMbNFKoHnJLAPRmTLrXgdknD3uhKYyQ5Mr5iUHdLWGaXsDKZbvLenmN kZlsfKJqgRTRNB+m3d2wbmIoT1BUn2D/PaLsUe+VOTKZytSJ874Jejyl/SOt5uDU Ona5bzRliDh2pUVXaRhBKZBJYWaSiRT83XHJ7DD+cZ74KXoTOg89sHehiVtUmw+H 84WV5gOnE2ce8K3TAhhDAvV55WQI08Xqb3M3VAjOvNc80gOkSLh8++2leL8Mj7v1 kH+PtkND4Mr2F4RK+gKS1anzg6dgDg== =H0Sv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_74220CB2-DD92-4FF9-A3FE-6284309CFCF1-- From nobody Wed Dec 9 09:55:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015063A16B3 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:55:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Dl8fie7K; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=BQpwaa1h Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dq_KGLQlGmEK for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C44703A168D for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 95074 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2020 17:55:12 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=1735f.5fd10f80.k2012; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=aT2K8zYpqnLQRW/548U/nZthf6Nch/CRqqal+DZjFDA=; b=Dl8fie7Kw/SuaawVbM5e/5wDzRAMy74WfSaYKPa9z40WwPzF83MjfcvJ7H7E9ymIkiPQVaqv/j1D+nU67YhfFde7RhNkdwr8seDsUKojJcqVuIqfqpGRmf5JWqF/t6iiVeGmXGcdgiyMQJRaVDZvapJ9Qd2ziY0Uw1UG6dcQPLorAbJFvZ7PERLvDaLPktfAv4490rIJPqJXGXYVatZwfu0ay0Ls6CXfSFrGaiifGwWnUNgnU/xsSNiYftfThdUscEMxPSwwkCMnUbGYr9kMRhXrcu7uI4EAWX8xq123Xz0ybBsViYiOG6PkAd0oKRQ7FEKs6Mj6iDeVzKIzMhDt1A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=1735f.5fd10f80.k2012; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=aT2K8zYpqnLQRW/548U/nZthf6Nch/CRqqal+DZjFDA=; b=BQpwaa1hsSzXjO4X81IZGnSbLhYEjtpuwmwTIhciQ8rsVh4ZqJd0w+S1fp5ICTSnW6mPIL8wSEjAJqR/+hgMlRScVMBxXpSC+qEZnIMss/cSC35+NizuVm2eyFKqKhpjuqQWPlEQJP/BaL6ZQF7o+v8SbQt3K6u7HP8amcrBZLbnbIqFMcw63qJdPJdFxUcRxeC9FX/RhqEYUQgA5ZFUd8dqN3+o63uTtIlYlXYqUyQY4bHFY1RX9+aOaw3g5h5unpNT1EKeukrx3LpgEooLkno65BP2BTZ8+CI6RHD6XIZKpXHDkUzaofFjypEHAJRSo91EETtPZ+5uDpQvKavAiw== Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 09 Dec 2020 17:55:12 -0000 Date: 9 Dec 2020 12:55:12 -0500 Message-ID: <9648f742-185d-d1d6-c86b-38a74bc71d4d@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Carsten Bormann" Cc: "Tools Discussion" In-Reply-To: <78751089-654C-4A51-8801-CEBACE5B7E60@tzi.org> References: <80EA007A-4302-43C9-B323-C189FA1A7E3C@ietf.org> <8bbdd7f0-5d40-5a15-da81-68cd78618eec@taugh.com> <78751089-654C-4A51-8801-CEBACE5B7E60@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-310097892-1607536512=:91517" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author detection (Fwd: I-D Action: draft-normington-jsonpath-00.txt) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 17:55:17 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-310097892-1607536512=:91517 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-12-09, at 15:45, John R Levine wrote: >> >> At this point we're interested in what the RPC gets once the document is thrown over the wall for publication. > > Some of us. > > Some of us are actually very interested in what happens to an I-D during its long journey through the system. The RFC editor queue is one high-activity step at the end that we have to get right, but the overall quality of the IETF’s output highly depends on a productive I-D-stage process(*). > > I believe that, now that the worst parts of the V3 transition are over at the RPC side, we slowly need to direct more of our attention to that aspect as well. I agree but I am trying to drain the swamp one polder at a time. I'm starting by trying to get good quality v3 drafts to the RPC, and we can work backward from there. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly --0-310097892-1607536512=:91517-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 06:26:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B1F3A0EF2 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:26:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wUj8G2M0yRIU for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29B793A0EF1 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:26:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1607610374; bh=7Zo8+ssCyj3LgXWFA6mAGexC2V1rlSwmCfLgaCC+zn8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=hFLxzJK2oVr0Qn+GNbLdNmjo6kR0XcI0VA+Ue/dWxd+z6Na5EvlolfiXqi7DJBPxF 5vEFmIkwlNejplqi7HTiHPHWhaJp8AT995sOdXELL0eIENtYHvsm9QzqmiR6/T0b3F ZUSoA8QzZm+Il2KnnExCpbjjtotOTzeH9a1LUcFM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M6DWs-1kl9yg1cIi-006bkq for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:26:14 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <24953.1607349761@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:26:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:tMoQaJIE0sZDMBKXXz7Ggli9sY4+r9T7WLWCWBD6ml889tW1Ye5 paV7CIEd4htXF3D9EHIB0zPBQeUagrRqXHR3EZuhYsH70LTuvD5oUrpJnvjYEY8ppJ/dgcD t4dbEemIAunURLoRTZlw03snINauwAT1BC9xf1++0UC6aIharDGO1EhZadFlX3O7ECqIVqb W+mAvnUW1xbXnXovyQ20Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:BcMx620PSnU=:+NFJqd0XXo8k6ptERmvhvR E5PCV8JaiY3aA2YU7AWgD773cuvqpTFkxEkhrNgG0Hicu9LJ43W005NRraSpTI7xtKWAvXWv6 qKnAk2yWGOZrFMByk6FZfH4FUy2FjiTepvF+B6aeC0EKXOOJaEGLj26bpR+E9EmSlsPZ3juSC rHbC8TmNcWfNBgGqdGmppqUWFRAvWgdq0P/QoeQZCG+56CdPtstNWHFRmkMSA0qebfBRl1IGN mLVA1QCjavhJnhfJqr7d1ItQKPtgKXASfdFSUzoVkmk2+Ao62i7A08Wz2NZiX7mynC46WSqij VsdNDa6xXwTOtO2uLgzg/ApcqQf5xE85hoHCb9ECf2epm+Td0Z2KBXdvN7N0VDXRlp3eiFHim Ifv9oFl9fwOH63Tryl9dn195vs0+euKTW3gkKGjJa94H780croh0NlQtTJCG9ztHq1ExXkMUx c2k6lCUyOh0XY1s6YcjWnqI53vfbbHopJc/o5yu4ktg5Gq31S3Tec5jnb/xfeqkSuJKJGYpXg w/DnQl7Hv+2t42oEa6glc2/4fO2LDnHOJdYRmmV457qkLcQ1GxqBYXw91JR+qJFDIgfHN9fLJ TmxVcnn7LfKojL85vGd+i1ynC/W7I47khot+1038hI02wFx2Ecf+f9ME+J+RFzC2MRdGfXQOd ZzYIk1nCvBDeQ0hMt/jB9Y0XWLnjAukObtAWSv4IDVqUsBb0ZPb3mLfrtXj+y+41g96T000HA 80RXmHa2symBul5eTcadwAW8sVNkQxTlTTdMG46XZjFhV6YLc+mGQgbC/caLE5jCBa5402Fzm DIBxEksnx7cF5/XWrBQWW/zorIjTefA2rrJ0bjyrTFkeO7XolnBdhZ38IZytUPyeoD27e3DnW KANgQc6RKcvjyC5gT/pA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] page number-less, section-number-less references to Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 14:26:20 -0000 Am 07.12.2020 um 15:22 schrieb Julian Reschke: > ... In the meantime I realized that I left out a few things. Here we go. In xml2rfc, it *is* possible to link to a specific anchor in the target document. However, it still requires specifying the section number, because, *in general*, the processor can't know how to compute it. For instance: and ... resulting in something like: Secti= on 2.3 of [XML]) Now *if* the document being linked to is generated by xml2rfc, it *is* possible to compute the section number, as long as the XML source is available. rfc2629.xslt supports that using an extension element, see . With that, the section number can be left out. This works for rfc2629.xslt used "stand-alone", but also when run as a preprocessor for xml2rfc. Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Dec 10 06:30:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551523A0EF8 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d-Y_uzQj8f9I for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BB283A0EF9 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CsGYB0sZnzyTm; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:30:38 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:30:37 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629303437.488485-ee07c502a9785f1da8f0ff32e99c640e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0D704CA2-3BAF-4511-A1CB-CDBAB1F4956B@tzi.org> References: <24953.1607349761@localhost> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] page number-less, section-number-less references to Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 14:30:43 -0000 On 2020-12-10, at 15:26, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > = href=3D"https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#sec-common-syn">Secti= on > 2.3 of 1.0 (Fifth Edition)">[XML]) That is not exactly section-number-less. This is also not really the example we were looking at, as it points to = a specific past document; there is no point in having = section-number-less references there. What I was trying to do was to point to a draft that evolves, from an = email. Of course, the same is useful from another draft that evolves. (The = RFC-Editor will then, at as late a point as possible, have to pin this.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Dec 10 06:42:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48E53A0F3D for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:42:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pdt2TNSqAoYt for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EBA23A0F4D for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:42:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1607611338; bh=oGHvhSryw4J1gT/kjf+VdGhofFHMRWU+Ib7219RDQOg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=HJrXYRLQMEj8VgVQJV37rPPjGo73i7ce/qZ1oCSStEcn4W2rJyARVcOvDHYSVbYc7 GjtAPmZqCCO5d3EU4XMRhpsOyLo+4YWbv2VXeo9nKUzvBoujT4aGdqSNZtW3XkuzBj DQohMfGOQll8qVkNcPXfCU9betmBMNVZ3iOrfMyw= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.236] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MFbW0-1kuTtk1Vmg-00H3YW for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:42:18 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <24953.1607349761@localhost> <0D704CA2-3BAF-4511-A1CB-CDBAB1F4956B@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <91d48833-40ac-74dc-86d1-056137b95d9b@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:42:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0D704CA2-3BAF-4511-A1CB-CDBAB1F4956B@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:HTV8dPYmC4OZdLDPvYGydMIQsP6YyaDg0zolaUEHC88xz7vG2Zu L10oW783Ji300hUlKl36zegbCwOOzrhFv9EgWPzd+zjJOtXFzuP+68BlN3y7wMaOMaEHBMn MrP1VJhUso3pnUoJHXTgQNj+vfeAylkAEOgt3cMzyU3n52S0n5I0iy6wrG9IhYaRB1wUz1o yMebA9JhOa3GXxP5CS4jw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:2BIG0YqqQbg=:bVoBd7tBsjzG4HNI3eraN1 FmdcwJ7XLtAbkB4n84HHBJwz7IW3eqgb1bi74MjDUnNs/anDg5GTDywN8vyB0jfkJ68so9OFl T8k43gJRO9naV035KQwXazgrEVjJlv2LsC3tr1a65lzd2BFxzELH90p3x4L98bcqxhrkIQy0M uyN/4Ot0eVuC/Oczb2B8KvgOznQp0GTSDDw+BzBNTTCuqSVrPEjN/5ABkQem/HOBENJVO71P5 09nidgMPQ+eHq0CA+kEvgTOQBGYLEbzbVRUIDtydinf1qX4Hk6ChgsuRikSp5IFparYv724g+ r6BMNn62/krFoGtKb8GelK6lD5GaSEwnroJFrnzeYwIEb1Rsb+2ZzASsSZUTWxSprqNIwr03G /fAVbmb9wc+R/Onm7MJZ5vw9y6XB797/ptLmdOTbCjoP60F3E7wBoLo7DB+qkgBB6yvGeZWSJ wmWsS6AzGUVci5yVujCJjHUpl0yVIjISi5ldm8eCaUthNyynZhUycusyRFYTAS3PqGLcU79aZ N1fJcYaBDmgD3PdsIJdczCWThS8UBw6Ztm6Ys9PTy2sv4BDAS6J4K4p7HnMdipc3palN1rRKN bXBSiMqepaDNqcZdgKX02ymOMonx4TkhY6hDZiup6aOpb60JPGAdsdDdBOwyv3g3hi25MV9ms 4215j3Tt/s+KQDpQDLLgTdXIjxRzA3Gv4zTH16z8d9bmwrq2x9GP+KukKcxhJUhyQvWW5EeQs ylrUAS2MOfK51j/dq9SmkQBh0k+utDJVNhTGiJzu8d9GPlqKJkoPFIGS7hSVKpCqJ4e3+B8iK rRa9wOVRdcion/Ol3kO+b0zqWKQikqdNxJlFXkpdb1aPvrKMQ++hfnAdZXknhfl+nf/hAHne8 aVdAfMSzbAWpoXQXdvOA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] page number-less, section-number-less references to Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 14:42:23 -0000 Am 10.12.2020 um 15:30 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > On 2020-12-10, at 15:26, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> > href=3D"https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#sec-common-syn">Se= ction >> 2.3 of > 1.0 (Fifth Edition)">[XML]) > > That is not exactly section-number-less. > > This is also not really the example we were looking at, as it points to = a specific past document; there is no point in having section-number-less = references there. > What I was trying to do was to point to a draft that evolves, from an em= ail. > Of course, the same is useful from another draft that evolves. (The RFC= -Editor will then, at as late a point as possible, have to pin this.) I should have added another example, using the rfc2629.xslt extensions I mentioned. With that, you can do something like: defines conforman= ce criteria and contains considerations regarding error handling. ...generating...

Section 2 of [Semantics] defines conformance criteria and contains considerations regarding error handling.

...so document A (here draft-ietf-httpbis-caching-latest) refers to sibling document B (draft-ietf-httpbis-semantics-latest), and the *source* does not need to include the section number (the HTML output does though). Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Dec 10 06:44:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6803A0F48 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:44:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oXBGwTId-1wH for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 387E83A0F49 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 06:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CsGsG1VgyzygF; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:44:34 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <91d48833-40ac-74dc-86d1-056137b95d9b@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:44:33 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629304273.684985-03304475555acccf70d389b8e22d9627 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7D56D71E-BB11-4DBC-8850-713141C067DB@tzi.org> References: <24953.1607349761@localhost> <0D704CA2-3BAF-4511-A1CB-CDBAB1F4956B@tzi.org> <91d48833-40ac-74dc-86d1-056137b95d9b@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] page number-less, section-number-less references to Internet-Drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 14:44:38 -0000 On 2020-12-10, at 15:42, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > draft-ietf-httpbis-semantics-latest.xhtml#conformance Of course, there is some name-mangling going on in the HTML production, = so this is still, er, interesting, but that is exactly what I had in = mind. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:42:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23F63A0844 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:42:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (bad RSA signature)" header.d=gundogan.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FFc5Tgwe2hpL for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.localdomain (trantor.gundogan.net [37.120.167.193]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FAD13A083E for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [141.22.28.164]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 131433A121 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:23:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gundogan.net; s=201712; t=1607678623; bh=matxg4jAOPLM7SGYWhhI/gQcaFatS1f8rz6//TH8FXI=; h=References:From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=LB0chUe5CDE25/yMdpjEgyA2NVZvUJdfj4Dbpz+4Z5hp23cbBoW5AiOXney0Ke0Xq QyN4YVqfBFiejyE71sfulzWfDnJSh+d/8VyMYNDZeNyvWl1P2qSSDFxETI6AZdrH4y tpT31gtf8euZrjR/fnGV7OkpESZCsPsyoaoueT32G2hFftfSBcKxOAuoGGYwMWVz6L jzy87neBueYXbceC4JkeU5V744bFx+6AuUMJ7dvlvYZbDV/jbXKwKzugioc5eOomOU 8cY8bKa/+exc8rKKHuMfvyKcxLp0pRtuDZdnzqt0sJP2LIP0OPVrB+a7vnk/Yzx/gD HKJ2PfRcGoJ1g== References: <87im98af8a.fsf@gundogan.net> User-agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 From: Cenk =?utf-8?B?R8O8bmRvxJ9hbg==?= To: Tools Team Discussion Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:42:40 +0100 Message-ID: <87v9d8fzlb.fsf@gundogan.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Diacritics in bibtex export X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:42:46 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, not sure, if here is the correct place to report this, but I'll give it a try. We noticed that the bibtex export of RFC8724 [1,2] contains diacritics for the name of one of the authors. The RFC itself contains the ascii-only name. Since bibtex is quite picky (without explicitly activating utf8 support for the whole LaTeX document), a typical compilation just fails. Fixing the entry locally is not really an option for us, since we use rsync to fetch all I-D and RFC bibxml files to then generate the bibtex entries. Is the meta info on this document really correct (containing the diacritics)? If yes, does someone has any recommendations or suggestions (or experiences to share) on how to handle these cases? Best, Cenk [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8724/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8724/bibtex =2D- Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan Hamburg University of Applied Sciences Dept. of Computer Science / Internet Technologies Group Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg, Germany Fon: +49 40 42875 - 8426 Mail: cenk.guendogan@haw-hamburg.de Web: https://www.inet.haw-hamburg.de/ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEO3dMsPVVAdvZ+Oc2o9vC90TUhNIFAl/TPxAACgkQo9vC90TU hNJaVRAAysVGy3dSpSfu1Lwn9RmaD6hqueqy9c2r1LQqEkOzrILHhTXfItkifPys aEdyF/yjeK5w1VyMnjOO/hEVXbJcVTRbC7yUxcNfOiGlifwyO6eQkUHP/EbOOuhe jm5I1UXfpq1bAxZPdq1NzItjlfhwaiOVFWTv4Pbt+rAeFXazsV5YFfsjLx903Cb7 HwxCcK/6YVCSB857oRlQakyZRmThz7VaV2zTFUx3nCmBdEMlSG+5Vi+2MagWyBDk YOo6d5n8/OlIYl1EcqWQnvOaRjc3+nuaPqwsKBHk1uVWVzsV62v0TYl7zQ93wWLn 8h4AEnZMwVb/IvyxE+WAkHhruR3nFrKyIgC/H28RzTh7262eTY/cbRpS4/GDEGaG bXf/hoFdOtRU4YhxW4kx1nUGYNVo4clnZWboF18YiIAQOhuDhWRekGhZkX9CzOwe HY1LRe0uBhvBrP1iXNMohR0KairA1IsrzG86oVKhysyUo7qEYNdidFzoNYbbT/NI HPJWl9T7U5L45v2rHiFpOEOy9r6HFcPfAVhCZtxyGWSARqsmgTHzU5PI1eRBnhoM hsO3Atc8tc2JZNJJvta9qTLk+Lc2vQzBds79uZ2bbw8FIFZmaqCsQWNNdsVjrU+V sZrXAZg1K7ScPdbEpfxPFWeydO7zYfzbe8+6u3QK8vClbEOeo/s= =EjN/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:48:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AA23A0855 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:48:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tj278JiYgjBi for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 192C83A0858 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CsmF72qjxzyVc; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:48:27 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <87v9d8fzlb.fsf@gundogan.net> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:48:26 +0100 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629372906.81253-447f7ec16e0b5d87d9841ba4c466b3d9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87im98af8a.fsf@gundogan.net> <87v9d8fzlb.fsf@gundogan.net> To: =?utf-8?B?Q2VuayBHw7xuZG/En2Fu?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Diacritics in bibtex export X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:48:35 -0000 On 2020-12-11, at 10:42, Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan = wrote: >=20 > [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8724/bibtex Do you need anything else than \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} to make this work? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:49:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD4D3A0858 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:49:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ajj8lj9w7YnH for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEC253A0855 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:69a6:24a8:71bb:58e8] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:69a6:24a8:71bb:58e8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E3A06100D6; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:49:36 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1607680176; bh=k4NYp+88nLi8X4H8hgVeu1PpfgmZpwMbIHWkdFqdiz4=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=BCIQ/32Aq57ppo1ekdkY/svaU0+UeZMBHxai6yYeNeD8Ba0rP8EuA9joNmksW0W+X aXJT4IIwxcTrMyY6LFazAuiri359TGyLil1EWqtZqI8IoqLF/YUJwr9MxKFw/OgLtI Le9XkcUJdQ+p0ESpTkM40MzuKRbiMQZE6T0BemKI= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1B655742-E8E2-461F-85A7-54FE8F740040"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:49:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87v9d8fzlb.fsf@gundogan.net> Cc: Tools Team Discussion To: =?utf-8?B?Q2VuayBHw7xuZG/En2Fu?= References: <87im98af8a.fsf@gundogan.net> <87v9d8fzlb.fsf@gundogan.net> X-MailScanner-ID: 1E3A06100D6.A49BF X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Diacritics in bibtex export X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:49:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1B655742-E8E2-461F-85A7-54FE8F740040 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I wrote the bitex-generation of the datatracker, at lest initially. On 2020-12-11, at 11:42, Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan = wrote: > Since bibtex is quite picky (without explicitly activating utf8 = support > for the whole LaTeX document), a typical compilation just fails. = Fixing > the entry locally is not really an option for us, since we use rsync = to > fetch all I-D and RFC bibxml files to then generate the bibtex = entries. >=20 > Is the meta info on this document really correct (containing the > diacritics)? If yes, does someone has any recommendations or > suggestions (or experiences to share) on how to handle these cases? https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8724/ shows that the author name = really is Juan-Carlos Z=C3=BA=C3=B1iga, so the meta-data is correct. Why is enabling UTF-8 for the latex document not the right option here? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_1B655742-E8E2-461F-85A7-54FE8F740040 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl/TQK8ACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcmbA//bfBs3A6EJDAqiDoAhKfFDU1JJ+DZeK0sRrBTC6VnYLLonYNndVVTd628 vVcR9NWNWA6D4LVKNaDRyE9t8iFW424zYR0Ucjb4DdCwVmuiIb1Y9T1clfh+6hJu fMRHaXQomnOdnPstGQZ0IWctBFWK23AwqadZd/M7WfkefTXleNPctky8RQ099T2K a5Kh5qdSfHnk4KZHxY4u9Z8o2YDaMG2ZeH4fQ8hJjLRNez1w73xMaLJNRtIY8OBm uPNNT6omQaGwKg9XbPbCCL1TXW/p0RxV136AB4PNT9LWZaykvHWkukG6KQj5t30G akgVa7mywbZepi6fhEzigbcpdxAIpd+VWsFA+qkUIJXNZtoBJzKSeAhuqccr+r5F 0+v0aOfoHv4462aS670wnlxOajZ2C5cWH7O9p1YqjW/4MbJzfK8NxIjxfok7BilL ARLinVR78M9PXB/6QEvSVCye7TzrFArO9Dqd+FlwmQzLosnJdi4x2EmaDcUXs4E5 EltUqsN2QZMW1bsq60qpzLukOyHhytq+m+a/Wy4dDgXJ9nhKm6JdkaQ4e9WZd5eY +8eUqvZgESMvI20rq9Z9QyHg2ximm4Eszz/7Tzm6ChiZ5dgk9AgMBR5VpT9MH6ZE 9HWYlh0KKGsoUS4S7KO5o797U50qhwSvgRNf0I3WnpTYrV40ods= =qWNN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1B655742-E8E2-461F-85A7-54FE8F740040-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:51:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710033A0888 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:51:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.218 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.218 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lhhYTf4uUXRe for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 187333A0989 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CsmJn1PXyzySS; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:51:37 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_839C5775-C600-4531-9B63-EACD506F2BC5" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629373096.63617-b0faf04651324f08b58476226d36c367 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:51:36 +0100 Message-Id: <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> References: <20201211094836.3E2663A0880@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:51:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_839C5775-C600-4531-9B63-EACD506F2BC5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This went to mail=3D2Bietf=3D40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and I = thought that was all that is needed to get mail out. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: MAILER-DAEMON@ietfa.amsl.com (Mail Delivery System) > Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender > Date: 2020-12-11 at 10:48:36 CET > To: cabo@tzi.org > Message-Id: <20201211094836.3E2663A0880@ietfa.amsl.com> >=20 > This is the mail system at host ietfa.amsl.com. >=20 > I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not > be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. >=20 > For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. >=20 > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > delete your own text from the attached returned message. >=20 > The mail system >=20 > : host gundogan.net[37.120.167.193] said: 550 = 5.7.23 > : Recipient address rejected: Message = rejected due > to: SPF fail - not authorized. Please see > = http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=3Dmfrom;id=3Dcabo@tzi.org;ip=3D4.31.198.44;r=3D= > (in reply to RCPT TO command) > Reporting-MTA: dns; ietfa.amsl.com > X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 1F7303A084D > X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; cabo@tzi.org > Arrival-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:48:34 -0800 (PST) >=20 > Final-Recipient: rfc822; mail+ietf@gundogan.net > Original-Recipient: rfc822;mail+ietf@gundogan.net > Action: failed > Status: 5.7.23 > Remote-MTA: dns; gundogan.net > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.23 : Recipient = address > rejected: Message rejected due to: SPF fail - not authorized. = Please see > = http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=3Dmfrom;id=3Dcabo@tzi.org;ip=3D4.31.198.44;r=3D= >=20 > From: Carsten Bormann > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Diacritics in bibtex export > Date: 2020-12-11 at 10:48:26 CET > To: Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan > Cc: Tools Team Discussion > Message-Id: >=20 >=20 > On 2020-12-11, at 10:42, Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan = wrote: >>=20 >> [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8724/bibtex >=20 > Do you need anything else than > \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} > to make this work? >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_839C5775-C600-4531-9B63-EACD506F2BC5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 This = went to mail=3D2Bietf=3D40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and I = thought that was all that is needed to get mail out.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

From: = MAILER-DAEMON@ietfa.amsl.com (Mail Delivery System)
Subject: = Undelivered Mail = Returned to Sender
Date: = 2020-12-11 at 10:48:36 CET
To: = cabo@tzi.org
Message-Id: = <20201211094836.3E2663A0880@ietfa.amsl.com>

This is the mail = system at host ietfa.amsl.com.

I'm sorry to = have to inform you that your message could not
be = delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below.

For further assistance, please send mail to = postmaster.

If you do so, please include = this problem report. You can
delete your own text from the = attached returned message.

=             &n= bsp;     The mail system

<mail+ietf@gundogan.net>: host gundogan.net[37.120.167.193] = said: 550 5.7.23
   <mail+ietf@gundogan.net>: Recipient address rejected: = Message rejected due
   to: SPF fail - not = authorized. Please see
   http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=3Dmfrom;id=3Dcabo@tzi.org;ip=3D4.3= 1.198.44;r=3D<UNKNOWN>
   (in = reply to RCPT TO command)
Reporting-MTA: dns; ietfa.amsl.com
X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 1F7303A084D
X-Postfix-Sender:= rfc822; cabo@tzi.org
Arrival-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:48:34 -0800 (PST)

Final-Recipient: rfc822; mail+ietf@gundogan.net
Original-Recipient: = rfc822;mail+ietf@gundogan.net
Action: failed
Status: 5.7.23
Remote-MTA: dns; gundogan.net
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.23 <mail+ietf@gundogan.net>: Recipient address
   rejected: Message rejected due to: SPF = fail - not authorized. Please see
   http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=3Dmfrom;id=3Dcabo@tzi.org;ip=3D4.3= 1.198.44;r=3D<UNKNOWN>

From: = Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Diacritics in bibtex export
Date: 2020-12-11 at 10:48:26 CET
To: = Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan <mail+ietf@gundogan.net>
Cc: = Tools Team Discussion <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Message-Id: = <FF4EBAA1-1CCB-4A54-8324-E6AF55AB65D9@tzi.org>


On 2020-12-11, at = 10:42, Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan <mail=3D2Bietf=3D40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

[2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8724/bibtex

Do you need anything else than
\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
to make this = work?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten





= --Apple-Mail=_839C5775-C600-4531-9B63-EACD506F2BC5-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 01:57:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51283A08AB for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mSkRBMk0vr7k for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91CF93A089A for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 01:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:69a6:24a8:71bb:58e8] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:69a6:24a8:71bb:58e8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3DC0F6100D6; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:57:36 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1607680656; bh=OdfTcXCjmMdvk896tK2IYTfSp9BplzlAAdh0kQipq2w=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=Ckoi6ZjS991XXO0p/SCrw+dECx1LPpfIRaawwlFc6Sugmhy+kv+q+HJsPiI37sonj TgtbfCTFslL5JTMsBPJHt6JFsUm6S2S8RHnI5OElR097saX24YmaSDJuiWvIRtLsn8 eg+pbNWlEIeWTTBCzUCacj4jPgogAqWT5NgBpZFY= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <3EC702BF-BBA5-42F6-90A7-33EAEBE3E677@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E554062F-C9F5-4794-B94D-F511DE84D4F0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:57:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> Cc: Tools Team Discussion To: Carsten Bormann References: <20201211094836.3E2663A0880@ietfa.amsl.com> <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> X-MailScanner-ID: 3DC0F6100D6.A301C X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:57:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E554062F-C9F5-4794-B94D-F511DE84D4F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2020-12-11, at 11:51, Carsten Bormann wrote: > This went to mail=3D2Bietf=3D40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and I = thought that was all that is needed to get mail out. I have seen similar errors recently. I ended up allowing 4.31.198.44 as = a sender for eggert.org. Lars --Apple-Mail=_E554062F-C9F5-4794-B94D-F511DE84D4F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl/TQo8ACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfhhxAArRUNCbmVMd7hWIjrUAkiAraqFhSzxq7gA5rfq8mKtzlFafUhQOzHUHhc EnQjk4P9qGACcaVE4c4K+P8bmhMUeF2loQTClN40iKp8t+aU+cub8zjr3e9TKUKv QKI5Y3ql5DO4StvuT//Dh3nHCdMc19A4jpoIBftNq5jtQ4SQLwGIV03su5S6kqlL Ofxp7lzt9h75KF28ik//07fXOgBotOmRbugDNafuVAcHgpcmaQZesvkiX1yfRVgd 8DKq5A/Flz66o2oFdmgdZMAh7G06/qC2XK0J9KFtYgJ6cHtiJsd6LwcGhDjIIHkD Pc+08tQEU0qdHHWPkxPSZLXEGe5qJC7uQu1/Sj4/6+K+CFSCHiAN+46EmxX65VGb 6U4bPvTd71GJcWFjwlnrK9eo/qR78nMq1DjnKJ3NYaQvlKwrsp+Nkraw2EY55CQL c4LMoEJqVMPfpVTlob2UVTxM8f8CnkiLvrO0vwPtsgCEKSmIKmpj8vcmfD6VRz7L dQ3ntUyQNlz12AaJ1OHf56FTjiAPQkEwuJKCaJg39Wb73gD29TjZgKsekrfP976w 1ee29TZzY9T1u0PpFKHY479mN8ZzsgpO1w0URyaNFJsVZasu16XnsDkTk1t2QW59 vf75TCZKiCf0jFpTcts7e/1FJ7ffz/3glgGcyhI7n+us8NC5qr4= =e1me -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E554062F-C9F5-4794-B94D-F511DE84D4F0-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 02:26:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9780D3A0977 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:26:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (bad RSA signature)" header.d=gundogan.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pO90PdYPOV1f for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.localdomain (trantor.gundogan.net [37.120.167.193]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 087DD3A0962 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 02:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [141.22.28.164]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 916753A131 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:07:09 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gundogan.net; s=201712; t=1607681229; bh=haHgK2xF+Tk/Nr/+KbAmLNi8kyMN3nueyJkGHELpDDg=; h=References:From:To:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:From; b=Cw0zpU75+ZIHdfCWvSHwrDYq5iylwWlW+HyBzR1/Xwsu4ps9+bKt1TBQ7bYr0IOsi 5xFUhTNTPdP1dhloSHZyQ5wBYwCwi9hcfl+H+hgk/jTerlmHmTwGLJzMA3UsEMSfZw l3oXnrNaT8dMU66yo6z/UKL5UUoaAA/c5BTUJzeo5gO9xcjOyyHTCDif7Wh3H62knz cqN7uVUZMwPjPLx7s1a6L6GfsbNixpxOZR6hGOL3aTN9cSuaYXTNXpa25BpBMsYz6i M7p/n4FFAYY9Umsb5OWoX973X1M5aMCGPbzq2AeMhAtH0cAJDAmZDR2g83Zayj7KWU Q9IkMl5Ecwn6g== References: <87im98af8a.fsf@gundogan.net> <87v9d8fzlb.fsf@gundogan.net> User-agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 From: Cenk =?utf-8?B?R8O8bmRvxJ9hbg==?= To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-reply-to: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:26:07 +0100 Message-ID: <87sg8cfxkw.fsf@gundogan.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Diacritics in bibtex export X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:26:12 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, On Fri, Dec 11 2020 at 10:49 +0100, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > I wrote the bitex-generation of the datatracker, at lest initially. > > On 2020-12-11, at 11:42, Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan wrote: >> Since bibtex is quite picky (without explicitly activating utf8 support >> for the whole LaTeX document), a typical compilation just fails. Fixing >> the entry locally is not really an option for us, since we use rsync to >> fetch all I-D and RFC bibxml files to then generate the bibtex entries. >>=20 >> Is the meta info on this document really correct (containing the >> diacritics)? If yes, does someone has any recommendations or >> suggestions (or experiences to share) on how to handle these cases? > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8724/ shows that the author name real= ly is Juan-Carlos Z=C3=BA=C3=B1iga, so the meta-data is correct. > > Why is enabling UTF-8 for the latex document not the right option here? That's probably the easiest way to go, then. As Carsten pointed out, enforcing utf8 with \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} solves the compilation problem. I was actually quite surprised: initially, I thought the author entry field of the bibxml data comes from the original document sources (either uploaded plain text, or uploaded xml for xml2rfc). Even if not, I'd assumed that any other source should match with what is displayed in the RFC document. That's why I thought there might be an issue in the meta data. If everything is as expected, then I will move on with enforcing utf8 .. Thanks! Cheers, Cenk > > Thanks, > Lars > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org =2D- Cenk G=C3=BCndo=C4=9Fan Hamburg University of Applied Sciences Dept. of Computer Science / Internet Technologies Group Berliner Tor 7, 20099 Hamburg, Germany Fon: +49 40 42875 - 8426 Mail: cenk.guendogan@haw-hamburg.de Web: https://www.inet.haw-hamburg.de/ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEO3dMsPVVAdvZ+Oc2o9vC90TUhNIFAl/TST8ACgkQo9vC90TU hNL7Lw//Tl5uA8EEanTUvc+tsF/ixoWq6/Z1wWn/bQ14+zlx1MUX3PxdaDB+QEBI OGTOapRXwp184KlrZBSuKp24RFxs3qOlMvkMRhqHjY0Y9G6y8xkxlsmkK5yaJV6S JXsrA+HIZfBsAvns/8l7FfrMDITsUuIob85cdy+An5s+o4NlRP7yxtC6OfwFOora jvxwDWMHzcw61E2eAODaYNO6IRDpDISRDtPlBFtyoB80yCCJmdvPamBWr8B5a7EI /rD/YJ/HsaoA6/pF98S9bTZeoIHrxxH1101THb7P7aacbylHBNL/liP4K1UbKdaW TRmVMM0gLZBvBPv9bq+I5BxvLT0TGzAHX7nplz/+fzdvN6GoW35CbOSmb6WVWLGE MME6ApYawmGnqVhPulKY44YyVXRGLdcQ9zYEo3dCK+uqkAijLYyaTupqMsqqrn6I oxhalIbgA7hza03EcMLZHPYPLR5Zwz1fDXflGNrbiPw8+4wXNqzzl8LaDesUDCZh psBCBP4ztvbevbXk3APOfIRGeY8Nz64B7AdIgq3ZPgbQJQLWajvjv46CD7YJNj+I TyEsaMfr8LfVDXVohsec9ECDjAv3Rg9FUDYMIhM2W0/n/EUZMKy/I4aUkuhJux2o nZyPl7fiIhXYD+hnj17KXYDy9+XJ9xI95lGDGS+OkGjQA1YfWKw= =wLO4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 09:24:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DF3D3A0D38 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:24:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCV_GmSjHVtt for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84C3F3A0D32 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 174D73C2E79 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0A36F3C2E78 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:24:10 -0800 (PST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20201211094836.3E2663A0880@ietfa.amsl.com> <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> <3EC702BF-BBA5-42F6-90A7-33EAEBE3E677@eggert.org> From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:24:08 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3EC702BF-BBA5-42F6-90A7-33EAEBE3E677@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 17:24:13 -0000 On 12/11/2020 01:57, Lars Eggert wrote: > On 2020-12-11, at 11:51, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> This went to mail=2Bietf=40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and I thought that was all that is needed to get mail out. > I have seen similar errors recently. I ended up allowing 4.31.198.44 as a sender for eggert.org. I can't speak to the errors or the rewriting portion of this, because that is all a part of the Postconfirm system, and others here are better able to speak authoritatively to how it was designed and should work. But to this point: > allowing 4.31.198.44 as a sender I just want to clarify that those individuals who wish to whitelist the IETF's servers in SPF (or elsewhere) should include six addresses in their list, to account for our virtual host cluster: 4.31.198.44 2001:1900:3001:11::2c 4.31.198.41 2001:1900:3001:11::29 192.95.54.41 2607:5300:60:9ccf::29 Thanks, Glen From nobody Fri Dec 11 09:35:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9B63A0D8E for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HsQjFqu3nZNA for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AA373A0DA0 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:7d93:113b:ac77:e6e1] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:7d93:113b:ac77:e6e1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B2D526100D6; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:34:41 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1607708081; bh=8iHVTVBcVP2WV/eyRQ+xjcxxwH+QoUIpbRQT1e8hAIQ=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=gGSjZGCgIvbTrCUmhwbxNzhXlkEC/CL8RNn4BBaTYtL8c1naLjtMdxS4SgBCXjrep wQQTVkEFblusE3iwLXb8OihXBADa/brfoRMiPtB4vmqmYVPnWqyDJTEtsFsFkI1GVE c/SvL8wMjz2E9/mBAQxA4tF7cPw4PbwNlZBjMsRs= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:34:38 +0200 Message-Id: References: <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> To: Glen X-MailScanner-ID: B2D526100D6.A0664 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 17:34:59 -0000 Thanks Glen! Do these addresses by chance have a common DNS name? Would make= the setup a bit easier. --=20 Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Dec 11, 2020, at 19:24, Glen wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 12/11/2020 01:57, Lars Eggert wrote: >>> On 2020-12-11, at 11:51, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> This went to mail=3D2Bietf=3D40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and I though= t that was all that is needed to get mail out. >> I have seen similar errors recently. I ended up allowing 4.31.198.44 as a= sender for eggert.org. >=20 > I can't speak to the errors or the rewriting portion of this, because that= is all a part of the Postconfirm system, and others here are better able to= speak authoritatively to how it was designed and should work. >=20 > But to this point: >=20 >> allowing 4.31.198.44 as a sender >=20 > I just want to clarify that those individuals who wish to whitelist the IE= TF's servers in SPF (or elsewhere) should include six addresses in their lis= t, to account for our virtual host cluster: >=20 > 4.31.198.44 > 2001:1900:3001:11::2c > 4.31.198.41 > 2001:1900:3001:11::29 > 192.95.54.41 > 2607:5300:60:9ccf::29 >=20 > Thanks, > Glen >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Fri Dec 11 09:42:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD7D3A0D3C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:42:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sNHzLXTORgbk for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 564B03A0D37 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D26EB3C2EF2 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C79423C2EF1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:42:47 -0800 (PST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: <6903e9d9-a1ad-9dad-bc80-b2d36ffaa664@amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 09:42:46 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 17:42:52 -0000 On 12/11/2020 09:34, Lars Eggert wrote: > Thanks Glen! Do these addresses by chance have a common DNS name? Would make the setup a bit easier. Hi Lars - ietf[abc].amsl.com Thanks! Glen From nobody Fri Dec 11 10:00:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A4E3A0D64 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:00:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hG9Lqixtjjbe for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAB4B3A0D40 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Csz8f5ydlzyXT; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:00:18 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:00:18 +0100 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629402418.322217-e1c56cb32e3ee357a74e7449627794b8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20201211094836.3E2663A0880@ietfa.amsl.com> <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> <3EC702BF-BBA5-42F6-90A7-33EAEBE3E677@eggert.org> <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> To: Glen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 18:00:24 -0000 On 2020-12-11, at 18:24, Glen wrote: >=20 > 4.31.198.44 > 2001:1900:3001:11::2c > 4.31.198.41 > 2001:1900:3001:11::29 > 192.95.54.41 > 2607:5300:60:9ccf::29 Hmm. check() { addr=3D$1 printf "$addr: " NAME=3D`dig +short -x $addr` printf "$NAME -> " printf `dig +short $NAME A`/ dig +short $NAME AAAA } cat < 4.31.198.44/2001:1900:3001:11::2c 2001:1900:3001:11::2c: mail.ietf.org. -> = 4.31.198.44/2001:1900:3001:11::2c 4.31.198.41: mail.ietf.org. -> 4.31.198.44/2001:1900:3001:11::2c 2001:1900:3001:11::29: mail.ietf.org. -> = 4.31.198.44/2001:1900:3001:11::2c 192.95.54.41: ietfc.amsl.com. -> 192.95.54.41/2607:5300:60:9ccf::29 2607:5300:60:9ccf::29: ietfc.amsl.com. -> = 192.95.54.41/2607:5300:60:9ccf::29 I=E2=80=99m sure quite a few mail servers will croak on the v6 address = of the second server, and maybe even on the v4 addresses. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Dec 11 10:03:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3D33A0D66 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G1iECpns6S-5 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35BA13A0D47 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4E0F3C2F57 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3DC23C2F56 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:30 -0800 (PST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20201211094836.3E2663A0880@ietfa.amsl.com> <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> <3EC702BF-BBA5-42F6-90A7-33EAEBE3E677@eggert.org> <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:03:29 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 18:03:33 -0000 On 12/11/2020 10:00, Carsten Bormann wrote: > I’m sure quite a few mail servers will croak on the v6 address of the second server, and maybe even on the v4 addresses. Carsten - They won't. Only the first server is live and resolving. If we ever had to bring an alternative server online, the DNS would be updated automatically and the new server would take the old server's place. The DNS you're seeing now is just "backup" records. Glen From nobody Fri Dec 11 10:33:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7BE3A0934 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:33:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=ajNBcm2+; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=VpWd6iqo Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YhSpU2zdCSwC for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38A1B3A0B77 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 41666 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2020 18:33:29 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=a2bf.5fd3bb79.k2012; bh=/s0weIR+ulnwMXe6FtLVO/IexvsbC4h+YKVduDrs2Zk=; b=ajNBcm2+8juMFyrTUfV04qvpl9hlyNGJMGgKfb/BGQoiaQW0qQojm5cRgm6yHqfEYSQ+r3R0SEyfLpLlvBVE5PZH79clUkiIl7WUDNuhBbC5AQBXr4jFcQCGEup0FkxD8SvH5i1D+ayz6gOGMhnWhOGgfV2YHLTYik6iDCm/TidaIxvIb+Hnv4yDwj8LhuyiloFciRTudxgnbeRr3RJZ8Lp6qZNI0oZiJlg/4kDlEpkwqZNwSHc4Ib0Orssahvdntfnory7uG6zFUI4Ix7beU9k66N6oxuUzof1Tt+UIWWv4kpInQhFQpkz/ZB5n6ojIb0lkDKyIarL5sjC5omNMbg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=a2bf.5fd3bb79.k2012; bh=/s0weIR+ulnwMXe6FtLVO/IexvsbC4h+YKVduDrs2Zk=; b=VpWd6iqoLOSp2Z0p0ISh8s9DxxCGEAe+JCp8+Kxdg9lB31rgqE0K27oEBDK2chObVs3QWtwBuRa+897ZWs2/CMciImaD6hfd3LXGpdjfa29uDnEHYIZbGMLyoVpYgtfwauP+kZ8Ja18KogPSasg+8wQCuPlFlrz0QjjyGA4BTcIue/FV74yi+oOtNkP5doP3Xshq+qY5QZoHAKd8DLBc5iL2MJap1ZDmFlq9ocyEaVDIunHyF6ID13by4cDWsu0P6rhektjfdOo/WS81epL1JW1CJgT9Dp7wE+hf1bISMhgLiBnxBGj9UqZ9pKnPYSEnHx9vKbVOJ8N4eyxBHGxkQA== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 11 Dec 2020 18:33:29 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id C2BDF2979A3F; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:33:28 -0500 (EST) Date: 11 Dec 2020 13:33:28 -0500 Message-Id: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: cabo@tzi.org In-Reply-To: <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 18:33:37 -0000 In article <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> you write: >-=-=-=-=-=- > >This went to mail=2Bietf=40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and I thought that was all that is needed to >get mail out. >> to: SPF fail - not authorized. Please see >> http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=mfrom;id=cabo@tzi.org;ip=4.31.198.44;r= Your message was relayed through the IETF's mail server and your SPF -all tells him to reject relayed mail. His mail system is doing exactly what you've asked it to do. If you believe that the IETF should do something else to forwarded mail it would be helpful if you could point to relevant RFCs. Or, of course, you could fix your SPF record. R's, John From nobody Fri Dec 11 10:34:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B725C3A0DCE for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:34:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=D8WFKQUl; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Qh9DGZxu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ReZkHmCoRO8A for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:34:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 263543A0B77 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 41913 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2020 18:34:19 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=a3b6.5fd3bbab.k2012; bh=Ng8WgEo0sbcoBRyjNKyOey9JHsF/z692iqec4SbGep4=; b=D8WFKQUlx0LBZKq7UaYtGvSAsjTaZwzzFi7WpeGMAm9V940R0i86zMwrQl0OouOwTkAkxLQ88gLYE8IGOIhdt6E7kQ8LPpupjO44YHKeRsxB2EmdBk1j7pSbNeJyWh2Q2yAxOtZfWvzNCxXeYkstwxTeWlu+qOSKjlQpviiwqrernM03HqBi9gY9xQn+ZVdMByj42wC0Lw6fHX1toqIXtasEZpskn34vOzAm6kwjRa/g8Hii4lW4cdrfycWGXMYB9CZYFRNgc0iUbY9zT5PsRP3Xj3wQjCGdl1j6EZxwM3C4rNxEMINhrpZipP2YLY+0SxoUqZp0O7Uts91owy+zjw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=a3b6.5fd3bbab.k2012; bh=Ng8WgEo0sbcoBRyjNKyOey9JHsF/z692iqec4SbGep4=; b=Qh9DGZxuRJ2q4c6pZmj1Q0K23b6LyOizbIiUw7sgOzIIon8VEZhyYNSHIVXEW40FbXRrDjNcPtRNeVnlvp9SyhIe0Hs486yP8JXCY7WdnwVjJZRWxtUoG+u6ji728GLd+7hlfKNpTvQaXzYPSokf0YvLMvqvrGGL9cHO5GIxghCPbLl6Bpi72A6AKwCyb17zey87nGh6Ux6dXgaVPqLVTsQvqcTVJSD/8tFzRfQAp10XKbD8v6UYjqZUAzTILXh6ZgpsisEK6yOl6CYglB4qGA+aTwNsCcEMAVg8gAQEm8x9PORg08YsWqrr+l9eHYwTilZu8igvKBkDM0G/kb5hYQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 11 Dec 2020 18:34:19 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 21CB92979A4D; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:34:19 -0500 (EST) Date: 11 Dec 2020 13:34:19 -0500 Message-Id: <20201211183419.21CB92979A4D@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 18:34:23 -0000 In article <1ee731cf-e21b-21bd-b4ce-961c64a5541a@amsl.com> you write: >On 12/11/2020 01:57, Lars Eggert wrote: >> On 2020-12-11, at 11:51, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> This went to mail=2Bietf=40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and I thought that was all that is needed >to get mail out. >> I have seen similar errors recently. I ended up allowing 4.31.198.44 as a sender for eggert.org. > >I can't speak to the errors or the rewriting portion of this, because >that is all a part of the Postconfirm system, and others here are better >able to speak authoritatively to how it was designed and should work. It's working fine. Carsten's SPF tells people to reject relayed mail and that's what happened here. R's, John From nobody Fri Dec 11 11:02:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6783A0DEA for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:02:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9vI9Aw1rhtRS for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CC233A0DE8 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from unformal-11.home ([47.186.0.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 0BBJ2Tda001713 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:02:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1607713350; bh=aABZldEaxnCBQ3MvClJQSAb/pwDBuQrIE0R0ZA+4Cm4=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=GhAtJbU3GNVAvqkLzp14CeTP3OmqarOCuUtnbD2eMiz1VO5pVMaI04xujRzambnB9 B4sdJLov+rLSfSU+EnOMAxJyB7h/XO5xtfCHkGKCDO9pGQVm23pyiLK+lxz7F9Gq/d ALAPmNiSJTF07qxiEBpKe8m3sEdIyb+qJzDl3wKI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.0.128] claimed to be unformal-11.home To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <1ce1b467-078e-821c-81e2-39d639a96e4c@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:02:24 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Allowing xml2rfc to generate text documents with page numbers X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:02:34 -0000 The RFCs that define the format specifications for RFCs are clear that the published rendered text format for RFCs will not have page numbers. However, we have received many requests to allow the rendering tool to add those numbers when people are rendering documents locally for their own purposes. Adding and maintaining support for that is trivial, and we plan to make that available via a command-line argument in an upcoming release of xml2rfc. This isn't a change to how RFCs will be published - published RFCs will continue to follow the format requirements from RFC 7994 and the discussions around the revision of the documents defining the RFC formats. Those wishing to change how RFCs are published should contribute to future efforts revising those specifications. In general, the formatters will be able to produce a superset of what is required for RFC publication, and we anticipate that new capabilities will be added when there is appropriate demand. We acknowledge the concerns around the potential for confusion raised during the discussion of the request for this capability. However, we note that it is possible to generate a document with the current tools that looks like a published RFC with completely different content. Addressing this potential for confusion is not an issue to solve with the formatting tools. Robert Sparks, Tools Team Chair From nobody Fri Dec 11 11:10:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308A23A0DED for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:10:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ysfMpNFKKZu5 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04F523A0D2B for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0B0389A0; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 3pOj35NNMvKf; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C4F38999; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCDFA9; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:10:27 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, "John Levine" In-Reply-To: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:10:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain John Levine wrote: > In article <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> you write: >> -=-=-=-=-=- >> >> This went to mail=2Bietf=40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and I thought >> that was all that is needed to get mail out. >>> to: SPF fail - not authorized. Please see >>> http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=mfrom;id=cabo@tzi.org;ip=4.31.198.44;r= > Your message was relayed through the IETF's mail server and your SPF > -all tells him to reject relayed mail. His mail system is doing > exactly what you've asked it to do. > If you believe that the IETF should do something else to forwarded mail > it would be helpful if you could point to relevant RFCs. Or, of course, > you could fix your SPF record. Well, I believe that the IETF should stop with the dmarc.ietf.org, and we should simply do, as you said, what the sender's SPF and DMARC records say, and simply drop their email rather than allow it through mailman. They didn't want it relayed, we shouldn't relay it. Period. If we are going to do this rewriting, then we had better get it right, and that means rewriting it both ways. {I'm been told that ARC solves all of this, but that was like 8 years ago, and we still don't have much. I guess we have a document, but I haven't seen it deployed yet. Is it?} -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl/TxCMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WU3ggf/R0TpjZyQmplfZsJKslycSX7ykSYcDvyqf1PYlic8YjnntQVqbgbjdPR7 /kh3XiNkXcXFuLOB0+zc30QyLbQ+fJN07SxAiH9zzHT+UlZ+pk9VgtT56RJfE3Lg MiTs1iNxsWu09BNgpkxDv2DB/7u0EOqo/6c+Q6gIFolcoeTHNDSUqtOe8KejvY9N muxqgc3FXcGleTD2AkMT0uuwllquV2p2cI43sYCOLA1XKwuj39QI3mLabRLw3Q86 9e7IxKd0fpVd/ZUEQrdI5THraSjfCJ3HBsoRGmKGGUFzt0WRbzyOEXQq0w/pzK0v ZMDUXxIAOLQg5P8YdqB4wEiBBTFOyw== =jdRn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 11:12:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F1D3A0DEF for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SV6ZXCuMO0Le for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D72C43A0D2B for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:62153 helo=tannat.local) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1knnq0-0001Y1-Po; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:12:21 -0800 To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org, John Levine References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:12:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <461.1607713827@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dap4lE2QWDSn6bRPkJUXjnJ1JFC2MlXE2" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: johnl@taugh.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, mcr@sandelman.ca X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:12:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --dap4lE2QWDSn6bRPkJUXjnJ1JFC2MlXE2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="toK6rgK6SR4xQwuEtIFtJc0PVS6tuDJsx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org, John Levine Message-ID: <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> In-Reply-To: <461.1607713827@localhost> --toK6rgK6SR4xQwuEtIFtJc0PVS6tuDJsx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-12-11 20:10, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > John Levine wrote: > > In article <93628091-1A48-4865-A100-F64DE5981ECF@tzi.org> you wri= te: > >> -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- > >> > >> This went to mail=3D2Bietf=3D40gundogan.net@dmarc.ietf.org, and = I thought > >> that was all that is needed to get mail out. >=20 > >>> to: SPF fail - not authorized. Please see > >>> http://www.openspf.net/Why?s=3Dmfrom;id=3Dcabo@tzi.org;ip=3D4.3= 1.198.44;r=3D >=20 > > Your message was relayed through the IETF's mail server and your = SPF > > -all tells him to reject relayed mail. His mail system is doing > > exactly what you've asked it to do. >=20 > > If you believe that the IETF should do something else to forwarde= d mail > > it would be helpful if you could point to relevant RFCs. Or, of c= ourse, > > you could fix your SPF record. >=20 > Well, I believe that the IETF should stop with the dmarc.ietf.org, and > we should simply do, as you said, what the sender's SPF and DMARC recor= ds > say, and simply drop their email rather than allow it through mailman. >=20 > They didn't want it relayed, we shouldn't relay it. Period. >=20 > If we are going to do this rewriting, then we had better get it right, = and > that means rewriting it both ways. We are rewriting it both ways. This was not a bug in our setup. Henrik > {I'm been told that ARC solves all of this, but that was like 8 years a= go, > and we still don't have much. I guess we have a document, but I haven'= t seen > it deployed yet. Is it?} >=20 > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh net= works [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT archit= ect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rai= ls [ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --toK6rgK6SR4xQwuEtIFtJc0PVS6tuDJsx-- --dap4lE2QWDSn6bRPkJUXjnJ1JFC2MlXE2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl/TxIwACgkQTptXS4+7 FxpmNw/9EpR0s6READp6cv+oto6/sDL0fD5pFAm99a0SorrZLeBAnRzRFJXX23zE zPXDq5pzJEI5vNGxeWKyHgcx4cidYRqJLULDWFUuKzf1vT/oou1KHcGTEXeNqOrn SuG/oVCgv59Xza/B0VqO9tWRYqP4pr9QSzFw5CCnWAUxgxDJHKY/wDPcCPwMsadK oT+8CXGUZ3caGiykB3kpGh6fFw2LPUaE9IqKb40x+Ctpg3oYcMI9fYZJpoltG/td Tpb3/HaSgihyCNsqAxiuCuBNWPWrGKP5TJt5bRjy27H03HR2ylskCIIuackImM+f 1vOM02sQbCkemi837PxJ+C+vTVpvFE+dribKjVy/qwATgdSYxUm19Mlcbbc9NRbL 8eAoloUJ7NYK9jcTfaFy9iyEw2Kpcv84ZFEusgVtnMJUUKL0lWMadvUv38sok++X gvV/nq7KQu8COyAEmoBq0XQiJ4/u3wtrxV6byso3d2q9dBaq0Q+IEKqYTi2O0gxs Qu8igZEmlE5znDaAp+gZHqIvTqi0Dx5QJeYn7vRuyrGfHAw0CGTRr7pNVxfSyjMp 8nwdjyHyQ1HxRWf1oJYQICIXbDEt1ysTczn0GAQwfClWPULQtL2Q593xw0A3G2xa +9KZvvlOCiec6xlcJ+76o8rHisX923V8PygJxupq82nosVJBnAk= =P308 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dap4lE2QWDSn6bRPkJUXjnJ1JFC2MlXE2-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 11:20:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9E63A0E27 for ; 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11 Dec 2020 19:20:16 -0000 Date: 11 Dec 2020 14:20:16 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , "Michael Richardson" , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:20:20 -0000 >> They didn't want it relayed, we shouldn't relay it. Period. In my experience only a small fraction of mail systems pay attention to SPF -all because the false positive rate is stupendous. The current behavior is fine. >> If we are going to do this rewriting, then we had better get it right, and >> that means rewriting it both ways. > > We are rewriting it both ways. This was not a bug in our setup. On mail to dmarc.ietf.org addresses, we rewrite the recipient but not the sender unless I suppose the sender also has a DMARC policy. I agree that is not a bug. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Fri Dec 11 11:27:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEB53A0E30 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:27:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkZ0mhDIRqnl for ; 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Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:27:40 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BBJJxjg022848; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:27:38 -0800 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 35892eweb0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:27:38 -0800 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:37 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.008; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:37 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: John R Levine , Michael Richardson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) Thread-Index: AQHWz6M+0bhUjMdBbkygyFm0OsodcqnyjMcAgAAKVYCAAAB+AIAAAkAA//+t7oA= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:27:37 +0000 Message-ID: <92A33A0F-7571-46AB-9CD4-BC193E545881@akamai.com> References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.44.20120703 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:27:42 -0000 PiAgICBJbiBteSBleHBlcmllbmNlIG9ubHkgYSBzbWFsbCBmcmFjdGlvbiBvZiBtYWlsIHN5c3Rl bXMgcGF5IGF0dGVudGlvbiB0byANCiAgICBTUEYgLWFsbCBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZSBmYWxzZSBwb3Np dGl2ZSByYXRlIGlzIHN0dXBlbmRvdXMuICBUaGUgY3VycmVudCANCiAgICBiZWhhdmlvciBpcyBm aW5lLg0KDQpSZWFsaXR5IGlzIGFsd2F5cyBtb3JlIGltcG9ydGFudCB0aGFuIHBoaWxvc29waGlj YWwgc3RhbmRzOyAgS2luZyBDYW51dGUgd291bGQgYXBwcm92ZSA6KQ0KDQpZZXMsIG15IGVtcGxv eWVyIGlzIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgZm9sa3MgaW4gdGhlIGRtYXJjIGhhY2suIEJ1dCBzbyBhcmUgb3Ro ZXIgc21hbGwgcGxheWVycyBsaWtlIEdvb2dsZS4gOikNCg0KDQo= From nobody Fri Dec 11 11:52:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E303A0E95 for ; 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Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:52:06 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1607716327; bh=HJHLshzyUNsvQNVEuCtdRxPDvBGeR/KmNKMH/gdKDI8=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=BOKZOJBytaAaxuJeLrnjDIJzP2Dl6N+O4chojjYIMeeZ4JrofvZIJla4zjlBegate WKWAFnn9XccBkRaQXeGZFUIEPcgdRWOGUFCPMUoJKzxVYMgeOSn0aE6zdHQ7etWeik p6a2KqDtC8eqjZM+DxeyU/VF5Cc7Gq3uNijlF6c40QkSWDjd7Ko5FpOFyyXcYSuxpn NThrj7glt/twc16QNjkJ8toNmLTpzMw5sug52QH3ARrE8qlwaNttcBjh0qrHq7iDnj lXO30j2rLpv/Qen2tTmo/hUHUD4lBPq/ujYWS0b1PRXEbZHy8njwSOEf7Ne5EwQ6WJ VSZJZe408WN7A== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Tom Pusateri In-Reply-To: <92A33A0F-7571-46AB-9CD4-BC193E545881@akamai.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:52:06 -0500 Cc: John R Levine , Michael Richardson , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> <92A33A0F-7571-46AB-9CD4-BC193E545881@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 19:52:21 -0000 > On Dec 11, 2020, at 2:27 PM, Salz, Rich = wrote: >=20 >> In my experience only a small fraction of mail systems pay = attention to=20 > SPF -all because the false positive rate is stupendous. The = current=20 > behavior is fine. >=20 > Reality is always more important than philosophical stands; King = Canute would approve :) >=20 > Yes, my employer is one of the folks in the dmarc hack. But so are = other small players like Google. :) =46rom someone who runs my own mail server, it bugs me that my address = gets rewritten. I=E2=80=99m thinking that I=E2=80=99m adhering to all of the best = practices for mail servers (I do have a problem with my upstream = provider not cooperating). But, I=E2=80=99m obviously not jumping = through all of the hoops that the IETF wants me to jump through to keep = my address from being rewritten. So I=E2=80=99m annoyed because I don=E2=80=99t know what the criteria = are. But then I see Akamai addresses are getting rewritten too and I think if = they=E2=80=99re not jumping through all the hoops, maybe there=E2=80=99s = just too many hoops. Tom From nobody Fri Dec 11 12:12:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260CC3A0EAE for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:12:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bluepopcorn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0dkmtH-djt2 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from v2.bluepopcorn.net (v2.bluepopcorn.net [IPv6:2607:f2f8:a994::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4E5A3A0EAD for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:12:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bluepopcorn.net; s=supersize; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:Subject:To:From:Sender: Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=I7AE77I3f/QncGDY9dZBqXzBmgtmo4iL2okeSFHYqXM=; b=dLOKZ1fRBomuGTh+m2Q7mnCJP+ nQGlsRCHeDIw0G607oEKgzYecsB93aErrUpGLADVFRqdvukDOdYa+ODz3qjvQRs2v7mb1FCZzzLvq M6WglRm99j+ycxs1mcEG6PibXHNxOGsQ7CySw0vKQ+AHKk4LClLysrIxKhU3kYCRIGU8=; Received: from [2601:647:4400:1261:70ad:1d7a:fdf1:99aa] (helo=[10.10.20.144]) by v2.bluepopcorn.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1knolx-0008Nw-6C for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:12:15 -0800 From: "Jim Fenton" To: tools-discuss Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:12:12 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: <9118C8DC-2A6D-4CFE-9475-76BF8487392F@bluepopcorn.net> In-Reply-To: <04dd1d7d-8ee3-d5c0-d02b-059b007acb63@nostrum.com> References: <04dd1d7d-8ee3-d5c0-d02b-059b007acb63@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:12:17 -0000 On 11 Dec 2020, at 11:17, Robert Sparks wrote: > We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix servers > for ietf work outside the main meeting. > > If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide > feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. I have used them (both Matrix and Zulip, which my spell checker keeps changing to Tulip) a little. One problem I have is that they have different interaction models, and have different terminology for different things (like “streams” on Zulip). One instance of this is that when I first got myself set up on Zulip, I accidentally set up an “organization” for myself, which was a lonely place! I hadn’t understood whether organizations federated in a way analogous to Jabber servers or if one had to be part of the IETF organization. It didn’t cost anything and didn’t waste much time, so no problem there. It might be nice to have a “cheat sheet” or wiki page or something to guide people who are familiar with some other mode of interaction (such as Jabber) on how that translates into this new service. I have used Jabber for years with a variety of client software but continue to be just a little disappointed that some things don’t quite work smoothly. As an example, I have tried several times to subscribe to presence from Robert Sparks (and vice versa), we both think we’re approving everything, and it doesn’t quite happen. The spam problem on Jabber has been getting worse as well. I find Matrix a bit hard to use as well. It seems like the distributed services, much as I like them conceptually, take a bit more effort to understand. That might be a barrier to entry for some. -Jim From nobody Fri Dec 11 12:24:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691383A0EB9 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:24:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Prf1hCEX; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Dc9IoJUH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SE03FjQWoVaO for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 592803A0EB8 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 66314 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2020 20:24:51 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=10306.5fd3d593.k2012; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=fgGZhTi7cHJ888Sr0f5E1PeqZSPynyzYU9KvIAsG5SU=; b=Prf1hCEXAWNqyUrKoINIBgkq1wMMfQ3+kGsFiMNfEzTFH2phUFfd7uCtb/kI80pWSOIpD8ZgnILn3kXyxmZQ1P7r13KtL07gyXqqC11vL6I+8I2EROrfBtLzPIkiqoX/oIjRCQbZD/VEfzHZdemvw9OfiVWAwb3gibF3EjvDx0qwu1ibvJS2GvWjCubJsYINNJRcjI5cUX6CuHuwLbBELR3XIoHfvUpU1VN4JQ54hr33gC2SQKuf5c6QxLpjiXI8hqVJMYqFSPCTzq3jjShQawT4vHTD/Vc/Q0FgFjN5m38k0AU4nuM2KYBW/dnDvoOZhpJ5FqMlJNqFYZ2dOPOV+g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=10306.5fd3d593.k2012; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=fgGZhTi7cHJ888Sr0f5E1PeqZSPynyzYU9KvIAsG5SU=; b=Dc9IoJUH/ZfUFzQ3GC3oZMQPQJLcjJ/x3L1dc5tV3ZQedZT9T9Jt6QQGq0GngJmQrW7I/tOhYGu5h7vRGbgbDZtiAKJCkfd5p32zt6QiKQtliFdIZM9crF5PbuTuGHdB+aSgZrtpNae1N7O7oFsrVMx3Vq1JuGiab9EWi8G0ibA3LpjXBmZ77/bmAjwTAqpQLc0Ts6ixjB6NIZkuU2Oig1ExYFnlq9/N9jIARqlWcPrR1SqW6DfWmKiOsctTrksqH4GnUcw8uSqs6Wvpt6UCIR62J9eyyEsdnTtIb7DkJ0/2J2SySAC4pVOam3NKV6EGATPZFPkXDfbJZvAadGYPyw== Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 11 Dec 2020 20:24:50 -0000 Date: 11 Dec 2020 15:24:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Tom Pusateri" Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> <92A33A0F-7571-46AB-9CD4-BC193E545881@akamai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:24:55 -0000 > From someone who runs my own mail server, it bugs me that my address gets rewritten. That's because you publish a DMARC policy with p=quarantine. Change it to p=none and the rewriting will stop. For small personal domains, DMARC policies other than p=none cause lots of problems and solve none. If your name were Paypal, the advice would be different. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Fri Dec 11 12:34:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81713A0EF2 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:34:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d02p7xyGNBmA for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61A373A0ED6 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.10.196] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 66D712BF8A; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 15:34:22 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1607718862; bh=AU9CfJtAWd+wBquGMSYaMMdlbZv6rbvf88qSh5Mdv5E=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=JUfR/S1j4N2QZYVzSOUXk9/gOS4OeG/MWqA5N7gVq6tweTXkz+Toq+LUuUEACBDcg kKwSzBZ7QM7uTXeRU4chBboa0lV7GyM50D2hQi8REmzjhKMUZDEsISGizSDX4OuK9m o5E3FJKKczAniD6/tV8tKO13MBWtdMkqF9PRLlVEfqIKNFd1JBiffONA0Y4RdZSVZR WIUjTwSSelA8ifXavw/wt+cJxi/JQgMPcV4QLehWzlAml5gVR3XkyQVLD/1LXqsE8d hqgMK9BH0VC0174gAs/Y1ZK9azb4Nalkd8+n0zG/ts2RDlpuEkdJtOLXeuR/QxurAk 7IH0nXrrZ9lSg== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Tom Pusateri In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 15:34:21 -0500 Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8D1B23C8-549F-45EC-99C6-FA6A55179F71@bangj.com> References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> <92A33A0F-7571-46AB-9CD4-BC193E545881@akamai.com> To: John R Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:34:33 -0000 > On Dec 11, 2020, at 3:24 PM, John R Levine wrote: >=20 >> =46rom someone who runs my own mail server, it bugs me that my = address gets rewritten. >=20 > That's because you publish a DMARC policy with p=3Dquarantine. Change = it to p=3Dnone and the rewriting will stop. >=20 > For small personal domains, DMARC policies other than p=3Dnone cause = lots of problems and solve none. If your name were Paypal, the advice = would be different. >=20 > Regards, > John Levine Thanks! Add that to an IETF FAQ somewhere please. Tom= From nobody Fri Dec 11 12:52:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44ECF3A0ED6 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:52:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0RkIKw1ztWGO for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A8F93A0A9C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6A0BE2C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:52:44 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GYCFullp3TtG for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:52:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE8FCBE20 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:52:42 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1607719963; bh=AbOz37m7ovTl0qpOl42tvJGz5PCkNuYXPGOY7LS9bxA=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=zG2ubvnCedWPPRE010De8J4HfKbg453XzkeR1ChdO5ZIRXvqpZsnMDnNd0qhCbS3H oOkQ5xNc5vpJCQhJzqnQeo2zgGLJHoVEoHsrku2WyxtQsRhc33rYcgrghSxSL6XSFZ 6OG8hAWzp9z9dhEs0+I/MSxNE0DavEsESywQ0A5A= To: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:52:41 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VRraKZSNSVfds6jWFjVb148LFetUuv14W" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:52:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --VRraKZSNSVfds6jWFjVb148LFetUuv14W Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ZhH9ahx6MGkbxjaq4Wg5PGaBTFq7tFzxj"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: matrix tests --ZhH9ahx6MGkbxjaq4Wg5PGaBTFq7tFzxj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F4EA45F50485C32CF583659A" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F4EA45F50485C32CF583659A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I've used jabber at IETFs for ages. I don't find that at all hard. (But my jabber accounts while old, seem to be working fine.) I've run my own matrix server for the last few years for non-IETF purposes. I appreciate the ability to use matrix as mobile clients for matrix are more widely available and more up to date than for jabber. That (better clients) might be more noticeably beneficial when we get back to f2f meetings, as in WFM-mode, I have plenty of screen real-estate. For IEF109 I connected to the IETF rooms using my normal matrix account from my own server. It's very good that can be done. I had expected there to be a matrix room corresponding to each jabber room but I didn't investigate much due to the TZ issues and the fact that jabber was fine. It didn't occur to me to create any matrix rooms. If it had, I'm not sure if that'd have been useful but I can imagine it being so in future, e.g. for a bar bof. Before that'd be a standard procedure I'd like to understand the duration for which any such rooms might last, how closed/open they may be etc. I think the main feature in matrix clients that I like that beats jabber is the ability to edit messages after they've been sent. I'm not sure how that'd pan out with the jabber logs, but am happy to do a test if that's useful. I'm also happy to connect and play about in general if that's helpful, just ping me. Whatever experiments are done, I think an equivalent to the jabber logs will be needed if matrix or another scheme is to be used for more than experiments. 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl/T3BkFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+ou JQ//YF5JusIB2DEzN3hJutZ5Y9j15iVgxyFGmimsi7DEKuEiDUy856vrcyAbT6z2Dt42hCBEYQrZ /ktTNwmHm+DvoJ0JXh9YqSLpYoWlSOwpNmAYhaLwlhQjUfXiSCsP/vxxBHkK8R4Wt+yXHWNbKPS7 8LyuOAW9kEJCHUqeKKtC1nxt8T2iepbIn2+0OeOqXwiF7p8voVnxJGYuy2DBm3a6whoGBaCuUOud R2hbHgabc2581iiB77qZTaHkdX5ISmkgybxT2YbhLrA/3uICJHQ4Mp5NzZF8deoTAkGHi74UsPWM /pFrKALApKY5SvexeEqjii28rbotQBtZe4olwlJnFjgkNyHqoLeobt+7LsVBsch9nJfwa7VXQZ5M 2VBYmcv9ySZORmsfGByoYMl9NTBY9jHkLBrpygE0AU0UDQyNAraUJ5CyrA6IzoMQFwe5QRBC4D0b eay+sBuDY8krnVcIM/Z0SfFuFvmtTut7E4TP4YpjwbcexE52PFnN3iofectV8mTTe3AhTgidq6P7 YE5S/zMqHtqkQLlmRsv8OVBlrd9zBiKwAMfJV/9FlFv/DLagzo04bMwxNcaGRvuiWS//Ut5m2TcY YFNJPreZZLtcdtQKhB+4fhRqxfQQ1xXWGi3DAemrBklQki+Z3szb3bAoxqXI+Q/jk3y4qJ5y5ngR I7o= =Fn10 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VRraKZSNSVfds6jWFjVb148LFetUuv14W-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 13:10:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4383A0EED for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:10:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iWlvMRzIzrpD for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9009A3A0EEC for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Ct3Mt4mz5zyvH; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 22:10:18 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 22:10:18 +0100 Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629413817.865732-4755438ad2f7d021d8604d460e7fc86b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <11F97607-8277-479F-B53B-03062EFEACB5@tzi.org> References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> To: "John R. Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:10:23 -0000 I understand what is going on. I just wasn=E2=80=99t aware that the problem that my mail address has = been having with using alias addresses at ietf.org also extends to = recipients at dmarc.ietf.org. That is very logical, still it hit me by surprise. On 2020-12-11, at 20:20, John R Levine wrote: >=20 >>> If we are going to do this rewriting, then we had better get it = right, and >>> that means rewriting it both ways. >>=20 >> We are rewriting it both ways. This was not a bug in our setup. I don=E2=80=99t know what "rewriting it both ways=E2=80=9D means, but = the, er, missing feature that I have seen for half a year or so is that = ietf alias forwarders rewrite based on sender DMARC policy when they = also would need to consider SPF policy. (My message to = xyz@dmarc.ietf.org reached xyz with my original sender address, so I = can=E2=80=99t confirm an observation that you were =E2=80=9Crewriting it = both ways=E2=80=9D, at least not in my case.) > On mail to dmarc.ietf.org addresses, we rewrite the recipient but not = the sender unless I suppose the sender also has a DMARC policy. I agree = that is not a bug. See above. I also agree that is not a bug, but it is a missing feature = that I have now learned makes it impossible for me to send mail to some = xyz@dmarc.ietf.org. If I could get my admins to publish a DMARC policy, = that missing feature would no longer matter. (But they only do SPF, in = response to tzi.org having been a favorite sender domain for spammers, = which in turn has been causing some black listing that we don=E2=80=99t = need.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Dec 11 13:13:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012273A0EF3 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:13:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (bad RSA signature)" header.d=gundogan.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vz0kMgBmh8Up for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:13:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.localdomain (trantor.gundogan.net [37.120.167.193]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D5033A0EF2 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:13:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [46.22.0.158]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A27C53A17B for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:54:41 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gundogan.net; s=201712; t=1607720081; bh=6lDd88z/NVdKblF+gUSSBR60m3U1KlZLOPylD/jz3H4=; h=References:From:To:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:From; b=dEPmepCnhvm3IKvIYCKY98Tp1a5rcsQlXvZu/ONtv1v6y5kteClxlm5LudOgjW3+p c+QOp0+kPSZ/LJ7XaPhZsmptwpx1C4rvBqrLhu9DNG8Be5tzN/H+dBt3gl+aCUiVNx OF9Im1Ka8VfPKN0+fwBm5lfjKUnxKg3AxUkGguifsD/VQHntEBVO5Y+nta0fCZXzyi zmeyMb4oiQnpzEaCZJM5tSHSjF6pDxWvpGuxVEBycPoyFbBE08i6v1xcPUJZXvlDR8 l6ekDB9tlQ8mFaTFJV0dq7/uzsqvNl99DxDU4mMY6S/Sqr4EdhnwMKuwdUQwpJWlhP RjYWSD5bJJegg== References: <20201211183328.C2BDF2979A3F@ary.qy> <461.1607713827@localhost> <50c0527d-4676-d485-382e-c967035798ea@levkowetz.com> <92A33A0F-7571-46AB-9CD4-BC193E545881@akamai.com> <8D1B23C8-549F-45EC-99C6-FA6A55179F71@bangj.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 From: Cenk =?utf-8?B?R8O8bmRvxJ9hbg==?= To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-reply-to: <8D1B23C8-549F-45EC-99C6-FA6A55179F71@bangj.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 22:13:40 +0100 Message-ID: <87mtykf3ln.fsf@gundogan.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:13:45 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, only a small percentage is actually leveraging the reply-to-list feature. Maybe it's something that one MUA can do better than another MUA, but in my experience mails via ietf lists are sufficiently tagged (List-ID, List-Post, ...) to use this feature. When replying, I just hit to-list-only and do not deal with DMARC-related From: rewriting at all. While this configured mailman is doing a decent job at deduplicating mails, other software might not be that apt. I like to think of this as a (maybe nowadays outdated?) netiquette. >> For small personal domains, DMARC policies other than p=3Dnone cause lot= s of problems and solve none. If your name were Paypal, the advice would b= e different. I'll think about this. If this is what it takes to improve the user experience of my correspondences, I might adopt that (: I'd prefer this over allowlisting the earlier mentioned IPs. Cheers, Cenk On Fri, Dec 11 2020 at 21:34 +0100, Tom Pusateri wrote: >> On Dec 11, 2020, at 3:24 PM, John R Levine wrote: >>=20 >>> From someone who runs my own mail server, it bugs me that my address ge= ts rewritten. >>=20 >> That's because you publish a DMARC policy with p=3Dquarantine. Change i= t to p=3Dnone and the rewriting will stop. >>=20 >> For small personal domains, DMARC policies other than p=3Dnone cause lot= s of problems and solve none. If your name were Paypal, the advice would b= e different. >>=20 >> Regards, >> John Levine > > Thanks! > > Add that to an IETF FAQ somewhere please. > > Tom > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEO3dMsPVVAdvZ+Oc2o9vC90TUhNIFAl/T4QQACgkQo9vC90TU hNIiEQ//WWVXkduJ2gF4dwetihIC9MssWC1mXh/GQcB0g1Otduv6mVD8rS9neTfH hhyC+0YgdfRgZvEMJglUmwk48gnQuxLfYeYFEmcnAcAH/tw3a5HLvRnctRhm/OZU bvZOnpxh6r6nC0tC8WR5NmmoUL2jdB2lfgkCrEwvHUcpOug6MkHvRtQohVtkUjmN ljIlmZb+Y28nXlQp8VVuoTcKk31USea7yHa+ttF47vEMcMjRN4n9Fmfnbq5hNvrK g5JMqgpjZja8DY3pREsJgsShrTsTF/xm3CI4Gfu3qMQjGS1v9VVsOgaFnllr7Ucw cgubSHbuAuMZuD/g8wAXGmDqny4+FJuV9//HFAb817chNsMpI7vORX3iGQFcBbsu /R+Wd0yDXjNNccV2OC4W8MtYBeEJcIwjz8oWrN2ALZ+OapKprRe9SfIVDtaBBAJu YTXRWlRcQQxANyDRZNSUyK9PHwP85k074u4QDU0a4hgB9l3QdKoqXsE3adI8/ZKy tdGw4DoVZwA5EeTrmzDiP8LQwV6x0DTFK9skWfzbycLE8SrLnKMGtHf7KHmSO8ro b3pel6v8dJWMI72v16famSgklC4BoS3X5pyztbqVTKb5aQXS/vlGONl3xublqoFH uqUVmyHxAJLm+H569/KtzRkg2lOk1f8cLoVz2ATKcMXovl46MQo= =cU2v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 18:43:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B393A0D6B for ; 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12 Dec 2020 02:43:18 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id C7CF729847D9; Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:43:17 -0500 (EST) Date: 11 Dec 2020 21:43:17 -0500 Message-Id: <20201212024317.C7CF729847D9@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87mtykf3ln.fsf@gundogan.net> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't send mail to Cenk (Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 02:43:21 -0000 In article <87mtykf3ln.fsf@gundogan.net> you write: >>> For small personal domains, DMARC policies other than p=none cause lots of problems and solve none. If your name were Paypal, the advice would be different. > >I'll think about this. If this is what it takes to improve the user >experience of my correspondences, I might adopt that (: I'd prefer this >over allowlisting the earlier mentioned IPs. I'd suggest adjusting your mail filtering so the SPF result is used as part of a spam score rather than just yes/no. In particular, as we have seen rejecting mail becuase of SPF -all has a very high false positive rate. R's, John From nobody Sun Dec 13 07:00:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8965E3A177C for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 07:00:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m_P9YOI4zlfd for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 06:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A43D43A177D for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 06:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id i67so5810466qkf.11 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 06:59:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fQV3u8R/NZUu5jrLJ7OMUgmEDb6sJSwCINryuqCLS48=; b=c9uGdwPSwqUn8fQADIUO074bHunbGeaxmp8RJhERlaftFdthgBGAnJiEG62M5k6MYu O55VuKePzR9NQz0PMfFxzd5BHky2RpcKnz0thysgU95GJC19JagZKUTjGo6SsAkE0zzW 2KCfUJTSQlauByv3US73k16D1p1UDmPdHlxyLaTLya1+O9cbuaDhCclV6/y7WzUuspq5 2QfH5AOFIO4En9ZJDNAaVTI+92D9nxRk6BYonmsm6LMk6usE2xPj0YCyv7LIH0Mf+hqB CRWA+qMWQZPidLWOBuCbsPW63MMdzebM875OtlGpT15bAqnfKGKqZAreV0o1pTJXEEnh VTHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=fQV3u8R/NZUu5jrLJ7OMUgmEDb6sJSwCINryuqCLS48=; b=OYW4LDPJc6jxK7pmVHzNLl3F0t5RnYWcWI3QsoMp/H51ImglCbWWWAJfjJ2ty/vbiu upFURmYnpbsLRGzVcCLLvSc3pGI9g67m8ezV0UdWTUt1XN3pfXj47ETA5IzrKnIkFaei OMqpcEOIwo/GpaeUOBQE5XUSDsfA2astS3sCbZFZSzebnq5IJKcZN9erwXVlk2YvHlUJ Z1zYeQQKu1tSd5BUs7bGQEAsBoDT4DfP1wa2JXUGu/WKslVoRFqqINTIqV/2vQmu34q6 aOz9kh2blzhRX664QvQSmTTTvOXi7TAy/Exg9TNvRWzOdgaRWc2qdB3CeAtFCAQ+Jgbw J+7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530WILZFNjeiTmOuiuLEIdx1tWLJx0h7K1YA9sD4FlMsBEs+fzR0 8IHEVDd4f897qRwevbQ6SZ+MT+KgBSLoR3A+YZmkg0ykNDQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxJ/4KMkDDXhIK/mi3f+gH10htb/zesJVKE2aqUsyJ6i/StxOIlJvGlhuOgkrUK0lolZfD2k9MShb8SHm8ekuc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6f07:: with SMTP id k7mr28416421qkc.476.1607871597382; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 06:59:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 09:59:41 -0500 Message-ID: To: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000680eaa05b659c78e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:00:00 -0000 --000000000000680eaa05b659c78e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Robert, Just one data point regarding Jabber - I've never had any particular difficulty with Jabber, which I really only use during an IETF meeting. I'm on MacOS, and I use the Swift client if I need Jabber service outside of Meetecho, and it works well, at least for me. If I'm in a Meetecho meeting, then I just use the Meetecho chat panel instead. My Jabber account is currently @jabber.hot-chilli.net, but I would be open to switching to an IETF-based account if those were provided going forward, Cheers, Andy On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 2:15 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > > We have been running trial zulip, matrix, and xmpp services since October. > See > < > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-announce/?q=%22trial%20chat%22 > > > > As noted in those announcements, the issue that we are trying to address > is the difficulty people have been reporting obtaining jabber services > and clients. We are hopeful that these trials will help the community > develop a better sense of whether to focus on improving the experiences > with xmpp or to pursue other chat solutions. We are also open to the > possibility that these other solutions may be worth operating in > addition to improving the experiences from xmpp. > > However, usage and feedback so far has not been sufficient to inform > what services we should run in the future. > > We had around 50 local jabber accounts created on xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, > and around 40 accounts were created on each of the matrix and zulip > services. > Few rooms have been created on the matrix service other than those > bridging to xmpp. > Few streams were created on the zulip service other than those bridging > to xmpp and those ingesting a few mailing lists. > > We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix servers for > ietf work outside the main meeting. > > If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide > feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. > > Is providing local jabber accounts and a web interface to jabber > sufficient? > Are there features that matrix or zulip provide that are truly helpful > for progressing IETF work? If so, please describe how they are helping. > > To collect more feedback, we are planning to extend the trials through > IETF 110. Please take advantage of these services between now and then > (at interim meetings for example) and let us know what you find to be > effective. > > If you are interested in using these services more directly for your > group's day-to-day communication, and are willing to test one or both of > these services on a primary basis for a while, please coordinate with > the appropriate leadership and let the tools team know so we can help > accommodate. Please consider using these services for ad-hoc, > design-team meetings, and even interims (again, coordinating with the > appropriate leadership). > > If you have had issues using Jabber in the past, please take some time > now to work with these new services and describe whether they improve > your experience. > > We need more feedback about these services to develop a sense of what > will best meet the community's needs going forward. Please engage in > exploring and discussing them at tools-discuss@ietf.org. > > While exploring, feel free to use the trial1-feedback room on Matrix and > the trial1-feedback stream on Zulip. > > Thanks again to the volunteers that have been helping configure these > services and keep them going. > > Robert Sparks, Tools Team Chair > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > --000000000000680eaa05b659c78e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robert,

Just one data point regarding Jabber - I&#= 39;ve never had any particular difficulty with Jabber,=C2=A0which I really = only use during an IETF meeting. I'm on MacOS, and I use the Swift clie= nt if I need Jabber service outside of Meetecho, and it works well, at leas= t for me.=C2=A0 If I'm in a Meetecho meeting, then I just=C2=A0use the = Meetecho chat panel instead. My Jabber account is currently @jabber.hot-chilli.net, but I would be open t= o switching to an IETF-based account if those were provided going forward,<= /div>

Cheers,
Andy

<= br>
On Fri,= Dec 11, 2020 at 2:15 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

We have been running trial zulip, matrix, and xmpp services since October.<= br> See
<https://mailarchiv= e.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-announce/?q=3D%22trial%20chat%22>

As noted in those announcements, the issue that we are trying to address is the difficulty people have been reporting obtaining jabber services
and clients. We are hopeful that these trials will help the community
develop a better sense of whether to focus on improving the experiences with xmpp or to pursue other chat solutions. We are also open to the
possibility that these other solutions may be worth operating in
addition to improving the experiences from xmpp.

However, usage and feedback so far has not been sufficient to inform
what services we should run in the future.

We had around 50 local jabber accounts created on xmpp-trial1.ietf.org,
and around 40 accounts were created on each of the matrix and zulip
services.
Few rooms have been created on the matrix service other than those
bridging to xmpp.
Few streams were created on the zulip service other than those bridging to xmpp and those ingesting a few mailing lists.

We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix servers for ietf work outside the main meeting.

If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide
feedback at too= ls-discuss@ietf.org.

Is providing local jabber accounts and a web interface to jabber sufficient= ?
Are there features that matrix or zulip provide that are truly helpful
for progressing IETF work? If so, please describe how they are helping.

To collect more feedback, we are planning to extend the trials through
IETF 110. Please take advantage of these services between now and then
(at interim meetings for example) and let us know what you find to be
effective.

If you are interested in using these services more directly for your
group's day-to-day communication, and are willing to test one or both o= f
these services on a primary basis for a while, please coordinate with
the appropriate leadership and let the tools team know so we can help
accommodate.=C2=A0 Please consider using these services for ad-hoc,
design-team meetings, and even interims (again, coordinating with the
appropriate leadership).

If you have had issues using Jabber in the past, please take some time
now to work with these new services and describe whether they improve
your experience.

We need more feedback about these services to develop a sense of what
will best meet the community's needs going forward. Please engage in exploring and discussing them at tools-discuss@ietf.org.

While exploring, feel free to use the trial1-feedback room on Matrix and the trial1-feedback stream on Zulip.

Thanks again to the volunteers that have been helping configure these
services and keep them going.

Robert Sparks, Tools Team Chair

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announ= ce
--000000000000680eaa05b659c78e-- From nobody Sun Dec 13 12:57:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F8B3A0980 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 12:57:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u8IU5zxwooTg for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 12:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01A543A097E for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 12:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643FC38988; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id HlvckGiLfXaO; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D0338984; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A2BE5D1; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:57:12 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Stephen Farrell cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 20:57:17 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Stephen Farrell wrote: > It didn't occur to me to create any matrix rooms. If it had, I'm not > sure if that'd have been useful but I can imagine it being so in > future, e.g. for a bar bof. Before that'd be a standard procedure I'd > like to understand the duration for which any such rooms might last, > how closed/open they may be etc. It would be interesting if we could get some kind of convergence between gather.town and such rooms. > I think the main feature in matrix clients that I like that beats > jabber is the ability to edit messages after they've been sent. I'm not > sure how that'd pan out with the jabber logs, but am happy to do a test > if that's useful. I'm also happy to connect and play about in general > if that's helpful, just ping me. I feel the urge to edit your text above and see if you notice :-) > Whatever experiments are done, I think an equivalent to the jabber logs > will be needed if matrix or another scheme is to be used for more than > experiments. Of all the available technologies, I feel that a seemless transition towards matrix pleases me the most. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl/WgCcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXtAwf+PudUGYby5T+pivcZt/X+kYwPRUSPqHIoNg3BxLN4YiZsTZ7yhOdny4Fk bkB3v4VsM3z0mnIg+ohtY8RUdSt2tQc+b8wVsCNmtpwq9UpaEyoJGbWbfu/s8Wt/ yqLxGcZS2hqtEdACcCK/8FFtN3A9QKiu3xjAVl+ysh4Se9lmyKjVHsIcLJ6MkgEu EdE/Rj2Ls0CGtWox0wMan6mSZYRk68IDftZOnI/cnGpbM7JVWFSb1kPCQo2wszQ7 rA33fUu3MUToqkDTC6WLsgNNqpAjx2yx5AVTDrx3Kw5a9AqmgaVANPEse1MCpGF/ qmy/BEuuyFaO04qoDj7U05ko+8BefA== =djIy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Dec 13 15:01:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8EF3A0114 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:01:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.053 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.053 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oqQgb8roU_OP for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf35.google.com (mail-qv1-xf35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A985A3A0100 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf35.google.com with SMTP id l7so7050000qvt.4 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:01:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eZQJA3rJbipN0h0658vRMAFBPAp3ZlUBOk0WAuGZ218=; b=LwefgI6MrGMHrDYFcYPnQIwu/krpgubNKJfVKfOYtySLzg86HcorcwGcNMWQKoanxB aI/H8koB7wRKOtqC7hseSpdNqpEDWlKuUuvX4Rb1mIT8QcsZhB4UNgh70gAfLTqvWXck Myndpvpp6b05+lwJXA3i9EBp4axrtNRdXcyd1xtDZOrh3rmASNK9z5gTzPLHUbkiLYtJ Z/8UzQ4hGTTyiNsqxvZpx17dcWMSeKOmTGtgU4xuTdGXRguFjMZ6pOyovf+U8VylxLUb QGnJ+Sq2W5ApEYHrvoNZxrmFSA+7pV0SyOGL0W4YWbo+jc+lSQ9BiYCnnwr9UnjydIAM MX7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eZQJA3rJbipN0h0658vRMAFBPAp3ZlUBOk0WAuGZ218=; b=diRMVFgma4eK+bDiOeettGIY9kmu9NmuTcbUUTU1ixprTx6WdHV+aVbpnO4fszlM/w bST5yMCo+HWZmvb2W5AY8c7xDiTWdUcgxe4FJP4/mJmfjB93rSJzBAYvegKO1lPDpKUs TiF64tBRjZqM3nnuswr1A70dfe5d1zM2PezlzmoyUPvKNOps6tJmyZtWOBBhyiZb36NA YTfLX7JdWBM5NKSzcLnXKyX9MVdq1XsDRQF0VzYkll5Samu5b9ifW5D8Eyk27zCOFqoF GfQ/qqYSr+Ca5X2gUHeUWSM1lJxu64G72wNuHenOAzE2IOPyRrX5TBvP2pOTFQkOlrd8 zXNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533qmDEzz4MCdyWwjYSYuLGSSIJtLBF83bONOb93fBUuJmc/Qs6o HRw68BJ8VWelscTfeA0nrvlBtX39pQmQveoZD0L24S7G+IA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxnapw9/iPSePnkTj6PLDjaewzTl081MOVOyUnC176SsF4PtnUm2o6e3/vEjNzq4NXwrejZQ9IacfSdg1Q8NeE= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:45a9:: with SMTP id y9mr29842763qvu.15.1607900498589; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:01:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Matthew Wild Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:01:26 +0000 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d7de705b66082d0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:01:41 -0000 --0000000000000d7de705b66082d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Stephen, On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 at 20:52, Stephen Farrell wrote: > I've run my own matrix server for the last few years for > non-IETF purposes. > > I appreciate the ability to use matrix as mobile clients > for matrix are more widely available and more up to date > than for jabber. That (better clients) might be more > noticeably beneficial when we get back to f2f meetings, > as in WFM-mode, I have plenty of screen real-estate. > I'm curious which clients you tried. On Android there's (at least) Conversations and yaxim, iOS has (at least) Siskin and Monal. All are actively developed with releases in the past months, and all of them (to answer a point you made later in your email) support editing messages. I had expected there to be a matrix room corresponding > to each jabber room but I didn't investigate much due > to the TZ issues and the fact that jabber was fine. > There is a Matrix bridge that should allow anyone to join the XMPP chats from any Matrix client, as I understand it. I think the main feature in matrix clients that I like > that beats jabber is the ability to edit messages after > they've been sent. I'm not sure how that'd pan out with > the jabber logs, but am happy to do a test if that's > useful. I'm also happy to connect and play about in > general if that's helpful, just ping me. > As mentioned above, all modern clients support editing messages. This is a common pattern. Clients such as Pidgin and Adium are popular among people who are used to Jabber/XMPP from years ago, but both those projects are seriously lacking behind today's standards. Unfortunately I think many people form opinions of XMPP based on their experiences with older "previous generation" software, but modern XMPP has long moved on. I know the Pidgin folks are keen to catch up, but they have other project-wide priorities they are focusing on. On the logs note, I believe with the current setup editing a message will probably display the updated message as a new message. As with a number of things in the current IETF XMPP deployment, this is something that could be improved upon. If the decision is made to stick with XMPP then I think a bit of modernization of the deployment would be a great thing, and something I'd be happy to help with. Regards, Matthew --0000000000000d7de705b66082d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stephen,

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 at 20:= 52, Stephen Farrell <stephe= n.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
I've run my own matrix server for the last few years for
non-IETF purposes.

I appreciate the ability to use matrix as mobile clients
for matrix are more widely available and more up to date
than for jabber. That (better clients) might be more
noticeably beneficial when we get back to f2f meetings,
as in WFM-mode, I have plenty of screen real-estate.

I'm curious which clients you tried. O= n Android there's (at least) Conversations and yaxim, iOS has (at least= ) Siskin and Monal. All are actively developed with releases in the past mo= nths, and all of them (to answer a point you made later in your email) supp= ort editing messages.

I had expected there to be a matrix room corresponding
to each jabber room but I didn't investigate much due
to the TZ issues and the fact that jabber was fine.
There is a Matrix bridge that should allow anyone to join the = XMPP chats from any Matrix client, as I understand it.

I think the main feature in matrix clients that I like
that beats jabber is the ability to edit messages after
they've been sent. I'm not sure how that'd pan out with
the jabber logs, but am happy to do a test if that's
useful. I'm also happy to connect and play about in
general if that's helpful, just ping me.

As mentioned above, all modern clients support editing messages.

This is a common pattern. Clients such as Pidgin and A= dium are popular among people who are used to Jabber/XMPP from years ago, b= ut both those projects are seriously lacking behind today's standards. = Unfortunately I think many people form opinions of XMPP based on their expe= riences with older "previous generation" software, but modern XMP= P has long moved on. I know the Pidgin folks are keen to catch up, but they= have other project-wide priorities they are focusing on.
On the logs note, I believe with the current setup editing a me= ssage will probably display the updated message as a new message. As with a= number of things in the current IETF XMPP deployment, this is something th= at could be improved upon. If the decision is made to stick with XMPP then = I think a bit of modernization of the deployment would be a great thing, an= d something I'd be happy to help with.

Reg= ards,
Matthew
--0000000000000d7de705b66082d0-- From nobody Sun Dec 13 15:02:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967313A02BC for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:02:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2IRefMuxEqw for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 138FE3A0100 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F5BA38AEBD for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8DEF938A1E1 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:02:14 -0800 (PST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <15081.1607893032@localhost> From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:02:14 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15081.1607893032@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:02:20 -0000 Stephen Farrell wrote: > It didn't occur to me to create any matrix rooms. If it had, I'm not > sure if that'd have been useful but I can imagine it being so in > future, e.g. for a bar bof. Before that'd be a standard procedure I'd > like to understand the duration for which any such rooms might last, > how closed/open they may be etc. I can actually report some technical data on that. As I was performing server maintenance over the past few days, I discovered that the Matrix database was taking up a significant amount of space (91 GB for 37 local users.) I put in an inquiry but didn't find anyone online (likely people are offline for the weekend) so I did some digging myself. I discovered that our Matrix server was actually mirroring, and storing a local copy of, every single Matrix room that every local user had joined. Here in no particular order are ten of the largest and most amusing rooms out of the 166 rooms that were found being served by our server: #GodotLatino:matrix.org #hedgedoc:matrix.org #projectalice-shitpost:matrix.org #marcopolo:matrix.org #matrix:matrix.org #monero:matrix.org #lounge:privacytools.io #rules:hive-mind.network #synapse:matrix.org #litecoin:matrix.org Unlike Jabber, where a room is hosted on a single server; in Matrix, it turns out that every room that anyone belongs to is co-hosted on every server used by any of that room's users. [1] Even if all (local) users leave the room, the room remains on the server, along with all of the shared data. Moreover, if I understand what the developers explained to me, it is not possible to delete a room "everywhere". I can delete a room that exists on the local server, but that does not delete the room from other servers to which the room was shared. And if our server somehow became disconnected from the rest, all of the rooms that had been shared out to other servers would continue to exist on those other servers forever as orphaned clones (for, as we like to say, some value of "forever"), outside of our ability to control (or perhaps even enumerate.) So unlike operating a Jabber server, where the conference server is the "authoritative" location of the room (and logs are captured there), and, it turns out, unlike operating a Zulip server (which also has an authoritative location).... operating a Matrix server isn't really "operating" a server so much as "joining a huge network of peer servers." As the IETF's operator, I do not set policy, so this is just my opinion... but I *think* that having our Matrix server mirroring some of the rooms in my list above seems... problematic. If it turns out that this is the behavior desired by the IETF, then no changes are needed. If, however, the IETF wants to operate the Matrix server in a more-or-less authoritative, "Note Well"-compliant kind of way, then I *think* the Matrix server would need to be deployed with federation disabled (meaning, local user signups only, and no room sharing across the world), and public room sharing disabled as well. We can certainly do this, but we have not tested that kind of setup yet. But unless they make that choice, then the answer to Stephen's questions seem to be: > the duration for which any such rooms might last, "forever", with no option to delete/close unless federation is disabled, and > how closed/open they may be etc. "wide open to every Matrix server of every participating user." Again speaking only for myself, my feeling is that all of the focus thus far on the technologies in this trial has been on how well we can bridge said technologies over to Jabber. I suggest that if the IETF reaches a "trial2" stage, it would be more useful to focus on the technology itself (as if, as Michael suggests, a transition is the goal), rather than on how well things bridge to Jabber. Bridging is fun... but I'm not sure it should really be the point... or, for that matter, even a factor. I personally would be much more interested in how well each technology works *on its own*, rather than "as a copy of Jabber." Hope this helps! Glen [1] ( https://matrix.org/faq/ , section: "Where do my conversations get stored?" which says, "Each replicated across all of the homeservers whose users are participating in a given room", and, farther down, under their definition of Federation, "data about rooms and message history is shared between servers of participating users.") From nobody Sun Dec 13 15:14:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C4B3A03F4 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:14:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rgypFDcII-nM for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 910203A03EF for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0587E38AEBD for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EB1DC38A1E1 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:13:56 -0800 (PST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: <2043f084-dede-f12d-2267-94548276e888@amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:13:56 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Etherpad "back to normal" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:14:03 -0000 Back in March, due to some overloading problems either with Etherpad or Apache or other IETF services, it became necessary to move Etherpad off of the Apache proxy and on to a different port. [1] Since that time, the IETF has experienced many changes and virtual meetings, and is using external technologies for meetings and scribing. But I've observed that there has still been activity on Etherpad, so I just wanted to report that Etherpad has been now been upgraded, deployed to its own cloud instance apart from the shared platform it was previously on, and now functions correctly, without the need for a special port designator, as expected, at https://etherpad.ietf.org/ Just wanted to "close that loop" for those still using that platform, and report that Etherpad is now back to normal. Glen [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/7E7ZujEhNqVI-9_gJsHOXlZnuSE/ From nobody Sun Dec 13 15:30:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8903A045E for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:30:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YZOJKoNcBohY for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EF473A07C8 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A7FBEE6; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:30:20 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A_O0gPiTC8q4; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:30:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 70F01BEBE; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:30:18 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1607902218; bh=E6NMfPzgvbj4sTYZBx9kRzyLypR3xp5b+o50YDAp7DY=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=js6v0IlfK7bGsfCml346mWNbpkf0iPzPW7coTVQtBbXARCqsfZpS2kNI2QZRElYK/ QJXl8p+0GkxLNqSJy7AHQCAI2BpdS21eGsDqHrTl5my6a8x7xpRydCfjGhMtDjpKeU +QfDtf4zyqmkKtuEfEz8x0NWHZfeXvdsEE3zC3bQ= To: Matthew Wild Cc: Tools Team Discussion References: From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <6ef41ee2-4cc0-9c78-c420-a54a3303f7f8@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:30:12 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dVJyTp1skjWnr60Fr83wLyHWL3g0BOzf0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:30:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --dVJyTp1skjWnr60Fr83wLyHWL3g0BOzf0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="OKU0rTbT3FJ9DTKX0ubV6rP2ftmYzLy1M"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Matthew Wild Cc: Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: <6ef41ee2-4cc0-9c78-c420-a54a3303f7f8@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests References: In-Reply-To: --OKU0rTbT3FJ9DTKX0ubV6rP2ftmYzLy1M Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FE835BB6406D90A19B869EF6" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FE835BB6406D90A19B869EF6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 13/12/2020 23:01, Matthew Wild wrote: > Hi Stephen, >=20 > On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 at 20:52, Stephen Farrell > wrote: >=20 >> I've run my own matrix server for the last few years for >> non-IETF purposes. >> >> I appreciate the ability to use matrix as mobile clients >> for matrix are more widely available and more up to date >> than for jabber. That (better clients) might be more >> noticeably beneficial when we get back to f2f meetings, >> as in WFM-mode, I have plenty of screen real-estate. >> >=20 > I'm curious which clients you tried.=20 For jabber, pidgin on Ubuntu. For matrix, element/riot on Ubuntu and IOS. (Not sure it's relevant but "tried" isn't quite right - I've used pidgin for loadsa years and the riot/element matrix client for maybe 3 years of day-to-day usage, so for me those clients are well known and not on trial.) And I also had meetecho in a browser too of course, but rarely use that for the chat room. > On Android there's (at least) > Conversations and yaxim, iOS has (at least) Siskin and Monal. All are > actively developed with releases in the past months, and all of them (t= o > answer a point you made later in your email) support editing messages. >=20 > I had expected there to be a matrix room corresponding >> to each jabber room but I didn't investigate much due >> to the TZ issues and the fact that jabber was fine. >> >=20 > There is a Matrix bridge that should allow anyone to join the XMPP chat= s > from any Matrix client, as I understand it. I hadn't appreciated that. I think some form of link in the agenda would be good if/when that's do-able. > I think the main feature in matrix clients that I like >> that beats jabber is the ability to edit messages after >> they've been sent. I'm not sure how that'd pan out with >> the jabber logs, but am happy to do a test if that's >> useful. I'm also happy to connect and play about in >> general if that's helpful, just ping me. >> >=20 > As mentioned above, all modern clients support editing messages. >=20 > This is a common pattern. Clients such as Pidgin and Adium are popular > among people who are used to Jabber/XMPP from years ago, but both those= > projects are seriously lacking behind today's standards. Unfortunately = I > think many people form opinions of XMPP based on their experiences with= > older "previous generation" software, but modern XMPP has long moved on= =2E I > know the Pidgin folks are keen to catch up, but they have other > project-wide priorities they are focusing on. Fair enough. I'd be happy to try other xmpp clients on Ubuntu if someone had recommendations. > On the logs note, I believe with the current setup editing a message wi= ll > probably display the updated message as a new message. As with a number= of > things in the current IETF XMPP deployment, this is something that coul= d be > improved upon. If the decision is made to stick with XMPP then I think = a > bit of modernization of the deployment would be a great thing,=20 Agreed. Cheers, S. > and > something I'd be happy to help with. >=20 > Regards, > Matthew >=20 --------------FE835BB6406D90A19B869EF6 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl/WpAQFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+pr WQ/+NUxJqxERaGzTkwv4KMynagjdwx6x8GC2RCu85cOJHba3Md8h96MYW+XmbNYZ2SlEV4Q3Q2OY iEik3O3vSUBkiirPwF3l5Tdjfm6LzQ1rRSmOUvVhqgV/e/BISpEAnWwkkz4DbugdX71yt152ZxFN KRdSgPqUbnqeHvIz/ds8Z2NJrafLHaU6gCCj5snb79tZOpSIApfM33LXBU7dICQCrMvdBuD6htdu 5P9T2Wr53VPR16849Rgks6SzaDzDqdVRBN7husIYsKWmJ7vBfhvjui64HQz9pA6h3Uw28IsRDN47 +Dk2pGav49PAl2Vitr4X5K/h6RLVNFPzyOQ8ppZoY1dHI2kPcDD1+IwZj2df9PRpchpWPc8EjeMT m4cdNwJZMvhKaoKsX3SiTw4eURvYh+ZSUcvBZPOsr3FOpvbCDfsUgAuuJaX4VUPTqynO9WbUiMih shvsUHEL7Gj0xDBcKH/pxgjc9MOaLefkUVeW9CH7mbXo3jHg3rqEeQ6xGNrvD7ByAZFa6SnlEG/4 VHwsXH+4bKrz7ApqPCYT3eoNzxeAp8tDWxP7q+7UbJyAVTwDMlEjzlEWBT203Tkma580N4KL7HgR SZK12LLfX0irz9QfJ30inGVVYHDJsxFEICj+SQUm5rhoIT6But6PAEdFViylrR6KVlJ77HPUgAwI jaA= =FIee -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dVJyTp1skjWnr60Fr83wLyHWL3g0BOzf0-- From nobody Sun Dec 13 19:15:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED883A0D25 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 19:15:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fsN5BJmPJJ5F for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 19:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BF773A0D16 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 19:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1884A3898B; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 22:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id yCgUi2yjoOep; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 22:17:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C25638988; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 22:17:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DE85D1; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 22:14:43 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Glen , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <15081.1607893032@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 03:15:06 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glen wrote: > As the IETF's operator, I do not set policy, so this is just my > opinion... but I *think* that having our Matrix server mirroring some > of the rooms in my list above seems... problematic. We can't be the only one with this problem. My understanding is that it is used within the French government and bureaucracy, and this must be a problem there too. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl/W2KMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WU1sQgAkeHlr+FxbeOaCAC2vNHXgSZj04IPTC5JFqWAvOAJNYCNZAaeEikCbOSK wNIC7UmFnggn5EZ1E9oZAqvFL7V3V6BnJJ50+nh2luT7OM6v7+uOKVDStuT9OJan QJGsYzAO23yxsEsXh5rShOd88keLrAECUtK0OYsPqLaZj4G3QmErRGsPcui+0uN0 CnHQY/qPfjZUopAZDNzUqA7OC7dwzh5K2kZazwvq/a1XrjFTJPcIGVlyZmoKzq8b PTU0o0N9d4G294+iRkYUfNrSJaLp67bBTwWAAGy30FKe2zs+8WHnEP1HLOBWStVt U0sxEQsZOOhdc6A397V095s6dHMcbQ== =ZghY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Dec 13 21:17:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E083B3A0ED3 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:17:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HboA0fWVHfoE for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D49AD3A0EDA for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.147] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CvV511P0MzyWd; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 06:17:25 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2294CDC3-2868-45DB-B20E-A5ED0817D0D6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.20.0.2.21\)) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 06:17:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stephen Farrell , Tools Team Discussion To: Matthew Wild References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.20.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 05:17:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2294CDC3-2868-45DB-B20E-A5ED0817D0D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 14. Dec 2020, at 00:01, Matthew Wild wrote: >=20 > iOS has (at least) Siskin=20 How do you use this? I immediately got hit with dozens of presence subscription requests from = the usual spammers. Each of these needs to be laboriously clicked away, which of course = triggers new ones. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten --Apple-Mail=_2294CDC3-2868-45DB-B20E-A5ED0817D0D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = 14. Dec 2020, at 00:01, Matthew Wild <mwild1@gmail.com> = wrote:

iOS has (at least) Siskin 

How do you use this?
I immediately got hit with dozens of presence subscription = requests from the usual spammers.
Each of these = needs to be laboriously clicked away, which of course triggers new = ones.

Gr=C3=BC=C3= =9Fe, Carsten

= --Apple-Mail=_2294CDC3-2868-45DB-B20E-A5ED0817D0D6-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 02:15:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E593A0EC8 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 02:15:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C24twCTWmjMB for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 02:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2636D3A0EC7 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 02:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx3.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94EE76A2FD for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:15:35 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1607940935; bh=eNsGHnrJ9ZYaz32YfDpHLK8vVOIwFfjd/2PGpZrcJv8=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=QNrjfXqlvaZ0IGzzgcCGKNcMFFVKdJmyu5yI/cPF4MhZ00clsQhM3aaxl68Um+rpS S6IkQb2lNHqT3JBbH5RXYy6/VfF8jP+9C7s8ThfPWqri+lyYXbwAJaLIV4samjBrga AeqGIKIHpngfmbQWMSxqabyAPI8K6D/7WYCxKa1DH3yJuSc4V2wnc6jRmxGXVeFCcC 0chfjLkVebO2oQo2z59+2BlOTQJl1KCWXuE4oNeWQ8TuOSLY3fwuhZvVwNjz1oH/hf vEJH/+q1IlCB2sls0VldkZp8d6Do1Wxi8ugTiVC8UHvsNLB/lQ6Y2VbGPJHn0PSP5h ZLJs35jiFTBgw== Received: from appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8645B3C0294 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:15:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:15:35 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: tools-discuss Message-ID: <113419518.8409.1607940935482@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev14 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 10:15:42 -0000 > Il 11/12/2020 20:00 Robert Sparks ha scritto: > > Is providing local jabber accounts and a web interface to jabber sufficient? > Are there features that matrix or zulip provide that are truly helpful > for progressing IETF work? If so, please describe how they are helping. My feedback is that XMPP is almost dead, at least as an Internet-scale federated service if not as a protocol, while Matrix is currently the open messaging technology that enjoys the strongest momentum, so adopting it would 1) allow people to reuse their existing Matrix clients and accounts, 2) guarantee much better availability of up-to-date client and server software at least for the short-medium term, and 3) promote the adoption of open and federated standards in a very closed, fragmented application niche. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Dec 14 16:53:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063E43A0940; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:53:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qqJyNACL6Qk1; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2D743A09B5; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cw0B272jdzyRd; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 01:53:30 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <0c993176-e4d2-c55f-3d71-10f8b37029cb@htt-consult.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 01:53:30 +0100 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629686410.5917929-9784a344a0b11f2d50048a826ebdb486 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0c993176-e4d2-c55f-3d71-10f8b37029cb@htt-consult.com> To: Robert Moskowitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Fixed - Re: errors on xml submission with displayreference X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:53:36 -0000 On 2020-12-15, at 01:44, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >=20 > I ran --v2v3 on the source xml, uploaded again and this time no = errors. So the conversion added something needed to allow use of = displyareference that worked with the local xml2rfc, but not with the on = used by submit. Yes: The X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0013A0DBE; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:55:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WKghXWopbPNe; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CDE23A09B5; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Cw0Cn4FY0zyRg; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 01:55:01 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 01:55:01 +0100 Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629686501.154549-2eaec1120b67d0dd7699e4eb08c89454 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> References: To: Robert Moskowitz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:55:05 -0000 On 2020-12-15, at 01:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >=20 > But I am getting the follow error from the txt file: Don=E2=80=99t send the txt file with a v3 source. (Another thing suggested by the submission interface that causes = problems.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Dec 14 19:59:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45763A03FA; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 19:59:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VIkEjFMEJRsE; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 19:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88E493A03F4; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 19:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B7362416; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:59:12 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id nzKo80bHLOeC; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C2986622B9; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:59:04 -0500 (EST) To: Carsten Bormann Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Tools Team Discussion References: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:58:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 03:59:18 -0000 On 12/14/20 7:55 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-12-15, at 01:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >> But I am getting the follow error from the txt file: > Don’t send the txt file with a v3 source. > > (Another thing suggested by the submission interface that causes problems.) > I did not include the txt, only the xml and I was right that the problem was the author's name in the reference. locally I get R., Håstad the submit generates: R., HÃ¥stad Not good. can we get this fixed and I will have to rev the draft just for this one error? From nobody Mon Dec 14 21:12:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40403A095F for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 21:12:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=OLKmsXyg; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=qfG3epuo Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lyr0uqK_jqoL for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 21:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87F473A0957 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 21:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9330C1A for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:12:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=lZZY1 3QtciKz24sA2y015THbKdbLB8KUBkYDSHXxU8A=; b=OLKmsXygNKwDcvdWoOsMy KyfqIem/SV84rQavW2fW2EbYj/41Uc7y0RtEAW0wBhotx4iPSDhfVYEqFQSV+Fyh ydBOK3q/BRgDJmRe6fiXlpqn0Ojzgv3tDa9lUDoom3D1Fu//vw9JyWMNX0E17+Ud cyuzK/BYYIUP6+4I4Fc8qGvUVWR+YyaZaZgaPfYBmQksLGjWP5rDjmB4a02uP22D 6CEiy8MjG2yZGha9i1PAIMGdp7M1HiADUZF2pazKoNnRRZR2b0+HNP8UMka83al0 SL+FD3OG/qBp3vj9uE9P8j29U8SSKBif682HVYNqCo44RcGZpQVRBkOp8lJYMyFF g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=lZZY13QtciKz24sA2y015THbKdbLB8KUBkYDSHXxU 8A=; b=qfG3epuofncY73Hpr/dsDIawKvjJpKRU7ozBsuWeaPE6vNuowap8EWTUB EgOjjDncMConVRkFhJDor1+VIig3CkSTmJ0Mmu2mMyOE1iLA5G48zs8LDxe/cO42 pONX7k19kIdm6zKjuc6iN3m7hKchfL8F2tEn8ZJN5qwBzNz1V6lC7tsNzyvDTX9z xfTc3MBC/4t5q5PPjMyBDIAJ0J+YzYvG1npEqR9nPb08t6ihLkWnOngu2WWB4zLx /sq1ZFQztaiMeWPSqsYuQHJcaMrnbNwwWYVUYvtheeMKKhjkXzSj7jy0khJUDxzo fyIjGPbGOXaezSpbHkPjbieJ9NYTw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrudekledgkeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffetgfevvdfhtdffhe ejudefhffhveehudefhffgleelteeifeegfefggfelhefgnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivght fhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhroh hmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 38251200C5; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:12:32 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.1-61-gb52c239-fm-20201210.001-gb52c2396 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:12:09 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 05:12:35 -0000 On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, at 14:58, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > the submit generates: >=20 > R., H=C3=83=C2=A5stad >=20 > Not good. can we get this fixed and I will have to rev the draft just=20= > for this one error? I opened https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/3151 a couple o= f days ago. It's not consistently broken, but some outputs do break. From nobody Mon Dec 14 22:04:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2943A0A9C for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:04:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hwdFhnRJDm0h for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04ABD3A0A97 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:04:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608012285; bh=WpGs+ZAmwcVZVUiKJfX26nae2LkOoYm1KhWtsJuvXhs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=kGtK3xAQLPT2XbDieu1dy9lMyM6L+2MCT3BoSp74Qc1jumFWhByPWL9evEuahJjkY WbARh3GN+cbh041stLgSNXbH0rAmn+nCqk795w+81IjacujSgjj4p/7NzUa7JkyYfc mARFKOzVi38gZEE3HG5CEo1DGoSOhPf6/CvyEaIQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.155.16]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MHXBp-1ktkGj3ZBJ-00DUJJ for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:04:44 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:04:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:S+5FIEZBQpj8WbuNuz/S7sdRuI+uJeoUX7yWquSg0fYdUTcic6W sAnZ6BppAXPAXg49G4zaQbSOvN44sHpWUv169KL0CjIWSE2gyoPcfYrgF+OFW19No1pLJA1 yIfU3TBp2r0YzwGR9w6+BwJkY5kcXNTVxBmedkIY/J8TwUk1mmXrHwlWjxqM15Bq19C79ta qu1oaJpyvViSxGISsjJjw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:5xaOCEsEU24=:R/fMYBH5FotFLDUrdOUb7D HhKKcEhx2B1SwL2Ot+wQ4Yhtl0mxx+1TYKCxUKNwNMo52Er3QiUslsnanO9JtIDHuIwGFV3Uw NF/UgQ7g89lmjwRJiqO8ZIlP0WDaIdLfAdLgagxa5irQpiSjUdNvBPba8DbAkhZdM5I8iIYs6 v+thpay6QVC6sRnO0uPjXnRv1F/XFc/AMNstSo+2tMk6LKpCOLX4BEcs1qdydQw/PK9A/xrCf AfS8vVS/BGpoHTqkeXN8Lro5NH7RQNkMy6+jaszxMoasyCIr1FW34wqWyy4jwlfi/EyNzBder BOvCKs/8CTLL4BvMVEVLh/WTSZc5z/IQ94xa2yv7ymB5cbBIJtKBS7lG6EQ2t2f+24DN1XG8/ MKhkTXOr09qVMS94vXRQri3BhWeBwOC2pK6GDRrgDhRO7+t6Y8C1AzoxAgIB7e0tpqozq41bj gV/7NX108tQLxV2vfmpQ0CuWacegp1SK2tuJIySSsqx9/dyOnNtNYD2T0iCO1zJbNDJdUBGI6 UBm4/swHB/awuPZY9Q1YerUcka3pO2VslvIm49I7AbpBnbF5wY88cgVI/lpzWr8S76Fcs4Wwb J52NFs6TlWaV1QYs8G3NlXfe5QaZ8YC/h+Ix3lLa1WA6Vl/3eEupKzrQnSzrmHegPqv/49JHh z4e0nniW1/pzv7zKaQi6rzWEhvUvoUrVeUkORUdcJQ/AXfOyVtC9CZoObLa8PcVpNo8kveyBS ve7IOx6oinBZP1bcaVyCeLaKu4He72P3yOY9OAhIOO11v7RkAAuxovwZRbnD7D2X5sP8wIETT 4t8e+CF4ssPPUEE6lKoy9KHP4AgFwZ+n9srlUSrJrwf8vbE683IfK8dLoOiY05syHCgpwwSHX rFW5DED3IoAoIXgeh/0A== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:04:52 -0000 Am 15.12.2020 um 06:12 schrieb Martin Thomson: > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, at 14:58, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >> the submit generates: >> >> R., H=C3=83=C2=A5stad >> >> Not good. can we get this fixed and I will have to rev the draft just >> for this one error? > > I opened https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/3151 a couple o= f days ago. It's not consistently broken, but some outputs do break. ...that might be a different problem. From nobody Tue Dec 15 00:29:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36533A0E49; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:29:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oNXMR0ZhGI-y; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE9573A0E44; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:29:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dca87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CwBHr3gKpzyVj; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:29:12 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:29:12 +0100 Cc: Robert Moskowitz , XML2RFC Interest Group , Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 629713752.16143-ef1bddf1a77e98d570430c33d7d462b1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <492F3F15-8A95-4DCD-811B-5AE50E94EB5B@tzi.org> References: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> <1605ab51-b721-9af0-36d8-fd79aceee2c2@htt-consult.com> <27280BED-7DD7-49F1-A1F0-CC45685A67A1@tzi.org> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 08:29:18 -0000 >=20 > Why would that matter? (unless there's a bug in xml2rfc...) I have no idea how =20 > FWIW, it *seems* to me that all is well, except that the text file >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-22.txt >=20 > is served with incorrect HTTP header fields (as Martin correctly = pointed > out), while >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-22.txt >=20 > is ok. Yep. Should have checked with my local copy, which is also OK (rsync = doesn=E2=80=99t break UTF-8). Since the incorrect HTTP header is = entirely an ietf.org infrastructure problem; I have CCed tools-discuss. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Dec 15 00:34:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A7A3A0E48; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:34:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7b8kNaiQsQto; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 755EE3A0E33; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:34:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608021270; bh=EmuP6QB8vjzIXHSxm6M+dGN+ToXoamhtAhiYO5urmHc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Jd4eHgBx1L+fK+ereZmuejcwXeXijyiwTKU5DbEAvbgBeA7TPbAKfsu5sfjQxCw5Z fhIcHBW9p14u4Ha5Ih1tSlyygOaY4NHOLxtgz4Tb7s+jmX37/xpSkuRIW2G1q+q+7L Fs4L59mh/RCoOdOyAssd2/NlyKIAkRwrHSWe+b2I= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([84.171.155.16]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M3lY1-1kpv0A4A43-000seB; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:34:30 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Robert Moskowitz , XML2RFC Interest Group , Tools Team Discussion References: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> <1605ab51-b721-9af0-36d8-fd79aceee2c2@htt-consult.com> <27280BED-7DD7-49F1-A1F0-CC45685A67A1@tzi.org> <492F3F15-8A95-4DCD-811B-5AE50E94EB5B@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <5cb4bb93-9ebc-d572-b51c-bc6e5b00d881@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:34:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <492F3F15-8A95-4DCD-811B-5AE50E94EB5B@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BN80BUKAD0DOQFsrPUo3ZpDHysSr4cQ4BzkhQim6vPLV5eyGLdZ 3iLeNjKuu45Lk16v4HjDxAgp7rVYoEyABi9qhxoNm6G7+hDkC/h2e16GWLvryMRGtSqUCiF 82PssY/z2Th2JzFhJ1DMZ9II6hfc/+32bAfqd66TMjDv5whTYTLPtNfPZ6ZjXpEu1hILqxZ bQMoIG3dKdVIfj4aaAiRw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:EaJ9slhTuHo=:kEVrYr7ScqEETvcCAQ31tc e9A8bht2tJUuy92jnfQnGjlEjwef8uT4Mszd+JkS9a+9L8ZRhbsYgb3PhXZ6zQYbnREOoge++ 052TscCcI4iITcpGMBA3ctLio81Bd1UYZ1R0tFvFMWPNxJWYWaHzPOQN7vMsUdxK7aNyzGbFA cTggc7NrBJOk4z0e5ygAOpUi9SmQtOwef+JiQ6M1N80InQNxtOcFo+ZYGALgNYu/1tYp8n/H8 GfBg/XGWo2j4ri/U7k/V0INDjLNf2C73dzW4jCvVIbrRWYraKVbO8DRCgWaUOJ8ddYqUabhKe ZuB9EQcyGke6iVAN0OGBDfu2NgBqV7g/hSdv3900XiX7eMlveDMDzJDl4r92ek3siY2/UnR/4 eo+w/Nb0JBNguGRyNjuiZm7dr3iwsUwIhpFuTswIMbp4o0sOnHW6gxDpjz3IUqveLXyoDpGUQ RcQMhkIZ+CBLQcxUVJ/BGtVNt4lCOYtHNdt+i3RCBVlCEH96yCJ2dXOHhKsfMC0PHChiRKTXn l7jSZ7WHiHdiiumICxkB+Plmt4P/rxgwaCPzuiQcJVXj4jCRybdTPeGmmdXXCrKlJM4Y1Va0q EQCNz/J/7Btp1mKY+vmYxZyTsduR31zW5jUWFZOU7PrT7wAqdwiKILt37pC//Ff8/OtmXFkPl WETos2f5OldTz32dNosxOLbrrzK3t5mdYq/FMkGS47cCdFrRDdSYFClfyfE09lccw1VjGq2UR T7S/cHihj5UHqn+sdlxwFembSBRm8MrUTupf3rGrNLy3qZlbsbdVihSv+Z5AB+W0DT3+9jsBQ E5Je47Fc0fMHsl1r5Gv0MYLEM9ycVpDiJg5nRjxo4eTHsReOPhNZDrGbNyShTzceK7x0Q4GVH P1USvMgPt+v04b8fQgrw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 08:34:49 -0000 Am 15.12.2020 um 09:29 schrieb Carsten Bormann: >> >> Why would that matter? (unless there's a bug in xml2rfc...) > > I have no idea how > >> FWIW, it *seems* to me that all is well, except that the text file >> >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-22.txt >> >> is served with incorrect HTTP header fields (as Martin correctly pointe= d >> out), while >> >> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-hip-dex-22.txt >> >> is ok. > > Yep. Should have checked with my local copy, which is also OK (rsync do= esn=E2=80=99t break UTF-8). Since the incorrect HTTP header is entirely a= n ietf.org infrastructure problem; I have CCed tools-discuss. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten There's already a ticket (should have repeated that here): Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Dec 15 06:51:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB273A1164; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:51:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3f3B1LGP1mQ5; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAE2F3A1162; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:62759 helo=tannat.local) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kpBfY-0007ay-ND; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:51:18 -0800 To: Robert Moskowitz , Carsten Bormann References: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Tools Team Discussion From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:51:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8kh61iDWngfeKDdseiedpKIk4S6u8QGoE" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, cabo@tzi.org, rgm@htt-consult.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:51:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --8kh61iDWngfeKDdseiedpKIk4S6u8QGoE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="TI6GboiXwMvvtBScSsCLejo9U1I5qmUuk"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Robert Moskowitz , Carsten Bormann Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file References: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: --TI6GboiXwMvvtBScSsCLejo9U1I5qmUuk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-12-15 04:58, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 12/14/20 7:55 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2020-12-15, at 01:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:= >>> But I am getting the follow error from the txt file: >> Don=E2=80=99t send the txt file with a v3 source. >> >> (Another thing suggested by the submission interface that causes probl= ems.) >> >=20 >=20 > I did not include the txt, only the xml and I was right that the proble= m=20 > was the author's name in the reference. >=20 > locally I get > R., H=C3=A5stad >=20 > the submit generates: >=20 > R., H=C3=83=C2=A5stad >=20 > Not good. can we get this fixed and I will have to rev the draft just=20 > for this one error? I suspect the file on disk on the ietf server is correct, and the issue i= s that the mime-type indicated by the server is incorrect. Henrik --TI6GboiXwMvvtBScSsCLejo9U1I5qmUuk-- --8kh61iDWngfeKDdseiedpKIk4S6u8QGoE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl/YzV0ACgkQTptXS4+7 FxpfOw/+PDjn6PdyhCxMmkJ3odGE4wmOR+EQX8ajeuMYbUaPFKtGcVONgnD8XPEw RcDSSOpXuwL1DzQDVW0kLu1JIepQBnc3f7e6aFNa6Kpk1juRKt4N5k6DlLXotxpZ xyfEVN8yiQUzEyvYLNBrLk8DOFUgeSpYJq6NQgLDCKmw32LOIvmAnAd0T8zRuUhn ZYL8LNn76OiolOktdYeDDSjXghVMb8b6t45ajlSRXTKVxwNbVdj5rpK14T1QDfEk jORMqI2DD8DJewxG4xaSvckeev1o/VmGsYr6E3UqHnyRDackGROsVNRvDgIOHenI T4Hcy7Ti+07TWEV3f107Ib/MTxLxkTWa62paUgz8ftFVksBXX1plxQHAr6EG2MsW +vk3H7qmZ7yIMRuFMilR7wSiLkY/NXhsj5M98YFfB4lPeCuN8FAEH8t8PhZMBvF1 MBzyoS75QIGAeZOOSN0cvorV51fC4mqK7VlL4RJBKbfsl6/r44M0O8U8O7iH19Gq EReeUtEfy5rZcYd6NTq0dL/p8dtaAk3y0MoJdF0qNNDnVz+hEQSXD1QWzMjs2U8y AZwNg3OKtMjm8r/Y3WKZ/IBdtMQr0JzkHZ0/3kbvCGI9FkTEwUjec+tU3RQ9b3et w8bvZanz7vmxUjJojP0/g8xQxNeWy8D6Jz4RubSGli6bV3zwBA4= =Duje -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8kh61iDWngfeKDdseiedpKIk4S6u8QGoE-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 07:00:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B33A3A11C0 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:00:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.175 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.175 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=1.2, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.972, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z60-OsIL2ZGy for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8001E3A11C2 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 0BFF0go1020178 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:00:42 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E1DF20F21F for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:00:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237B020F676 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:00:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.13.68] ([10.14.13.68]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 0BFF0f4A026489 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:00:41 +0100 To: tools-discuss References: <04dd1d7d-8ee3-d5c0-d02b-059b007acb63@nostrum.com> <3b673eec-3031-bbc8-6fd7-03f9180cfb0d@nostrum.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <2aae2e82-36bc-d8ae-04a5-852cf1f0d92a@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:00:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3b673eec-3031-bbc8-6fd7-03f9180cfb0d@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Fwd: Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:00:47 -0000 Le 14/12/2020 à 20:38, Robert Sparks a écrit : > Hi Alex - > > On 12/12/20 9:30 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 11/12/2020 à 20:17, Robert Sparks a écrit : >>> Hopefully everyone on both the chairs and manycouches list follows >>> ietf-announce, but in case not: >>> >>> (Discussion should take place on tools-discuss@ietf.org) > Please honor the Reply-To header on these messages (also set on this > one) and keep this conversation on tools-discuss@ietf.org >> >> I think one can stay home only if s/he had the right tools to meet >> online. >> >>> We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix servers >>> for ietf work outside the main meeting. >> >> I can try them.  But what is the zulip or matrix URL that I can click on? > > For convenience: > > https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org, https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org and > https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org I try to connect to the zulip URL but it does not accept my existing IETF datatracker|mailarchive password. However, it offers a possibility to create a new account ("S'inscrire"). Should I create a new account for zulip? (fyi, when I connect to meetecho I use my existing IETF datatracker|mailarchive password) Alex > > Those are detailed more thoroughly in the announcements you can re-read at > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-announce/?q="trial chat" > > >> >>> If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide >>> feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >> >> This is a good point.  I wonder whether there can be an automated >> forwarding between lists that have a certain common interest? E.g. when >> I post here with 'tools' in the Subject line it also gets there, and >> vice-versa with 'couches'. > The zulip instance ingests a few mailing lists, but that bridge is not > bi-directional. There are different modes of conversation with email and > chat - the email reflection of chat would look similar to an email > reflection of a jabber room - not a very pleasant way to consume or > participate in the chat. >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> RjS >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject:     Next steps: chat >>> service trials Date:     Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:00:58 -0600 From: Robert >>> Sparks Reply-To:     tools-discuss >>> To:     ietf-announce@ietf.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> We have been running trial zulip, matrix, and xmpp services since >>> October. See >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> As noted in those announcements, the issue that we are trying to >>> address is the difficulty people have been reporting obtaining >>> jabber services and clients. We are hopeful that these trials will >>> help the community develop a better sense of whether to focus on >>> improving the experiences with xmpp or to pursue other chat >>> solutions. We are also open to the possibility that these other >>> solutions may be worth operating in addition to improving the >>> experiences from xmpp. >>> >>> However, usage and feedback so far has not been sufficient to inform >>> what services we should run in the future. >>> >>> We had around 50 local jabber accounts created on >>> xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, and around 40 accounts were created on each of >>> the matrix and zulip services. Few rooms have been created on the >>> matrix service other than those bridging to xmpp. Few streams were >>> created on the zulip service other than those bridging to xmpp and >>> those ingesting a few mailing lists. >>> >>> We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix servers >>> for ietf work outside the main meeting. >>> >>> If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide >>> feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>> >>> Is providing local jabber accounts and a web interface to jabber >>> sufficient? Are there features that matrix or zulip provide that are >>> truly helpful for progressing IETF work? If so, please describe how >>> they are helping. >>> >>> To collect more feedback, we are planning to extend the trials >>> through IETF 110. Please take advantage of these services between >>> now and then (at interim meetings for example) and let us know what >>> you find to be effective. >>> >>> If you are interested in using these services more directly for your >>> group's day-to-day communication, and are willing to test one or both >>> of these services on a primary basis for a while, please coordinate >>> with the appropriate leadership and let the tools team know so we can >>> help accommodate.  Please consider using these services for ad-hoc, >>> design-team meetings, and even interims (again, coordinating with the >>> appropriate leadership). >>> >>> If you have had issues using Jabber in the past, please take some >>> time now to work with these new services and describe whether they >>> improve your experience. >>> >>> We need more feedback about these services to develop a sense of >>> what will best meet the community's needs going forward. Please >>> engage in exploring and discussing them at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>> >>> While exploring, feel free to use the trial1-feedback room on Matrix >>> and the trial1-feedback stream on Zulip. >>> >>> Thanks again to the volunteers that have been helping configure >>> these services and keep them going. >>> >>> Robert Sparks, Tools Team Chair >>> >>> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce >>> mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing >>> list Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Tue Dec 15 07:05:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5B03A1175 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:05:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7aTDTK2G2mYi for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 123263A0F3A for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.1.92]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 0BFF5abv051926 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:05:37 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1608044737; bh=cYAg02i/5u5g9310eEV3Ja1TvDAzJOwExCHi1sx5kzs=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=sh4T18ier8BFHH/2N+9UTxGp5byQ3kO1djA/YJLnl6vza3ubcfGjVI7CndjXypp6f zwQ/D6GYuOU2PgAEHcIa2ezCZlTZoXvOgCFsDWfSCOpVaRWvzkpOpUGZ+NcUKejyy0 WkGL2rIJWpDdBFCTrYSTjm4zYYn3j235BPKooTp8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.1.92] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Alexandre Petrescu , tools-discuss References: <04dd1d7d-8ee3-d5c0-d02b-059b007acb63@nostrum.com> <3b673eec-3031-bbc8-6fd7-03f9180cfb0d@nostrum.com> <2aae2e82-36bc-d8ae-04a5-852cf1f0d92a@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:05:31 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2aae2e82-36bc-d8ae-04a5-852cf1f0d92a@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Fwd: Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:05:42 -0000 On 12/15/20 9:00 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > > Le 14/12/2020 à 20:38, Robert Sparks a écrit : >> Hi Alex - >> >> On 12/12/20 9:30 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 11/12/2020 à 20:17, Robert Sparks a écrit : >>>> Hopefully everyone on both the chairs and manycouches list follows >>>> ietf-announce, but in case not: >>>> >>>> (Discussion should take place on tools-discuss@ietf.org) >> Please honor the Reply-To header on these messages (also set on this >> one) and keep this conversation on tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> >>> I think one can stay home only if s/he had the right tools to meet >>> online. >>> >>>> We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix >>>> servers for ietf work outside the main meeting. >>> >>> I can try them.  But what is the zulip or matrix URL that I can >>> click on? >> >> For convenience: >> >> https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org, https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org and >> https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org > > I try to connect to the zulip URL but it does not accept my existing > IETF datatracker|mailarchive password.  However, it offers a > possibility to create a new account ("S'inscrire"). Should I create a > new account for zulip? Yes. None of the trial services currently attempt to reuse the datatracker credentials. > > (fyi, when I connect to meetecho I use my existing IETF >  datatracker|mailarchive password) > > Alex > >> >> Those are detailed more thoroughly in the announcements you can >> re-read at >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-announce/?q="trial chat" >> >> >>> >>>> If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide >>>> feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>> >>> This is a good point.  I wonder whether there can be an automated >>> forwarding between lists that have a certain common interest? E.g. when >>> I post here with 'tools' in the Subject line it also gets there, and >>> vice-versa with 'couches'. >> The zulip instance ingests a few mailing lists, but that bridge is >> not bi-directional. There are different modes of conversation with >> email and chat - the email reflection of chat would look similar to >> an email reflection of a jabber room - not a very pleasant way to >> consume or participate in the chat. >>> >>> Alex >>> >>>> >>>> RjS >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject:     Next steps: chat >>>> service trials Date:     Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:00:58 -0600 From: >>>> Robert Sparks Reply-To:     tools-discuss >>>> To:     ietf-announce@ietf.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have been running trial zulip, matrix, and xmpp services since >>>> October. See >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> As noted in those announcements, the issue that we are trying to >>>> address is the difficulty people have been reporting obtaining >>>> jabber services and clients. We are hopeful that these trials will >>>> help the community develop a better sense of whether to focus on >>>> improving the experiences with xmpp or to pursue other chat >>>> solutions. We are also open to the possibility that these other >>>> solutions may be worth operating in addition to improving the >>>> experiences from xmpp. >>>> >>>> However, usage and feedback so far has not been sufficient to >>>> inform what services we should run in the future. >>>> >>>> We had around 50 local jabber accounts created on >>>> xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, and around 40 accounts were created on each >>>> of the matrix and zulip services. Few rooms have been created on >>>> the matrix service other than those bridging to xmpp. Few streams >>>> were created on the zulip service other than those bridging to xmpp >>>> and those ingesting a few mailing lists. >>>> >>>> We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix >>>> servers for ietf work outside the main meeting. >>>> >>>> If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide >>>> feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>>> >>>> Is providing local jabber accounts and a web interface to jabber >>>> sufficient? Are there features that matrix or zulip provide that >>>> are truly helpful for progressing IETF work? If so, please describe >>>> how they are helping. >>>> >>>> To collect more feedback, we are planning to extend the trials >>>> through IETF 110. Please take advantage of these services between >>>> now and then (at interim meetings for example) and let us know what >>>> you find to be effective. >>>> >>>> If you are interested in using these services more directly for >>>> your group's day-to-day communication, and are willing to test one >>>> or both >>>> of these services on a primary basis for a while, please coordinate >>>> with the appropriate leadership and let the tools team know so we can >>>> help accommodate.  Please consider using these services for ad-hoc, >>>> design-team meetings, and even interims (again, coordinating with the >>>> appropriate leadership). >>>> >>>> If you have had issues using Jabber in the past, please take some >>>> time now to work with these new services and describe whether they >>>> improve your experience. >>>> >>>> We need more feedback about these services to develop a sense of >>>> what will best meet the community's needs going forward. Please >>>> engage in exploring and discussing them at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>>> >>>> While exploring, feel free to use the trial1-feedback room on >>>> Matrix and the trial1-feedback stream on Zulip. >>>> >>>> Thanks again to the volunteers that have been helping configure >>>> these services and keep them going. >>>> >>>> Robert Sparks, Tools Team Chair >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce >>>> mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing >>>> list Manycouches@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Tue Dec 15 07:18:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3E23A107C; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pxHucZc1gr46; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [23.123.122.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C2CD3A11D8; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3B062569; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:18:34 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at htt-consult.com Received: from z9m9z.htt-consult.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (z9m9z.htt-consult.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id FCl8F3mKWuf7; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from lx140e.htt-consult.com (unknown [192.168.160.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by z9m9z.htt-consult.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5EA2C62416; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:18:28 -0500 (EST) To: Henrik Levkowetz , Carsten Bormann Cc: "xml2rfc@ietf.org" , Tools Team Discussion References: <53618DA1-CD97-4F7B-B82C-F65C3AE064BF@tzi.org> From: Robert Moskowitz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:18:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [xml2rfc] Failed decoding the uploaded file X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:18:44 -0000 On 12/15/20 9:51 AM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > > On 2020-12-15 04:58, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >> >> On 12/14/20 7:55 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> On 2020-12-15, at 01:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >>>> But I am getting the follow error from the txt file: >>> Don’t send the txt file with a v3 source. >>> >>> (Another thing suggested by the submission interface that causes problems.) >>> >> >> I did not include the txt, only the xml and I was right that the problem >> was the author's name in the reference. >> >> locally I get >> R., Håstad >> >> the submit generates: >> >> R., HÃ¥stad >> >> Not good. can we get this fixed and I will have to rev the draft just >> for this one error? > I suspect the file on disk on the ietf server is correct, and the issue is > that the mime-type indicated by the server is incorrect. I only submitted the xml, not the txt that my local xml2rfc built. It was that local txt that the upload barfed on with the illegal character.  What you have only is the base xml and the txt built by the online submission tool. From nobody Tue Dec 15 07:27:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E108E3A112E for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:27:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P2AcD53_oTJl for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (smtp4-g21.free.fr [212.27.42.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F239D3A0E26 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a01:e35:2e59:ce10::da3d:a356] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e35:2e59:ce10::da3d:a356]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8449D19F591; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:27:22 +0100 (CET) To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss References: <04dd1d7d-8ee3-d5c0-d02b-059b007acb63@nostrum.com> <3b673eec-3031-bbc8-6fd7-03f9180cfb0d@nostrum.com> <2aae2e82-36bc-d8ae-04a5-852cf1f0d92a@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <2e03915c-1cb8-31e8-62bf-b9f2026526d9@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:27:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Fwd: Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:27:28 -0000 Le 15/12/2020 à 16:05, Robert Sparks a écrit : [...] >>> For convenience: >>> >>> https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org, https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org and >>> https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org >> >> I try to connect to the zulip URL but it does not accept my existing >> IETF datatracker|mailarchive password.  However, it offers a >> possibility to create a new account ("S'inscrire"). Should I create a >> new account for zulip? >> > Yes. None of the trial services currently attempt to reuse the > datatracker credentials. Thanks. I registered on Zulip and performed the email confirmation and connected to zulip. All that was on my computer that is only on IPv6 (IPv4 is disabled on the iface). It is probably the first time I can do such a smooth registration on an IPv6-only computer. I will see for further testing. Alex >> >> (fyi, when I connect to meetecho I use my existing IETF >>  datatracker|mailarchive password) >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> Those are detailed more thoroughly in the announcements you can >>> re-read at >>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-announce/?q="trial chat" >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide >>>>> feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>>> >>>> This is a good point.  I wonder whether there can be an automated >>>> forwarding between lists that have a certain common interest? E.g. when >>>> I post here with 'tools' in the Subject line it also gets there, and >>>> vice-versa with 'couches'. >>> The zulip instance ingests a few mailing lists, but that bridge is >>> not bi-directional. There are different modes of conversation with >>> email and chat - the email reflection of chat would look similar to >>> an email reflection of a jabber room - not a very pleasant way to >>> consume or participate in the chat. >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>>> >>>>> RjS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject:     Next steps: chat >>>>> service trials Date:     Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:00:58 -0600 From: >>>>> Robert Sparks Reply-To:     tools-discuss >>>>> To:     ietf-announce@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We have been running trial zulip, matrix, and xmpp services since >>>>> October. See >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> As noted in those announcements, the issue that we are trying to >>>>> address is the difficulty people have been reporting obtaining >>>>> jabber services and clients. We are hopeful that these trials will >>>>> help the community develop a better sense of whether to focus on >>>>> improving the experiences with xmpp or to pursue other chat >>>>> solutions. We are also open to the possibility that these other >>>>> solutions may be worth operating in addition to improving the >>>>> experiences from xmpp. >>>>> >>>>> However, usage and feedback so far has not been sufficient to >>>>> inform what services we should run in the future. >>>>> >>>>> We had around 50 local jabber accounts created on >>>>> xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, and around 40 accounts were created on each >>>>> of the matrix and zulip services. Few rooms have been created on >>>>> the matrix service other than those bridging to xmpp. Few streams >>>>> were created on the zulip service other than those bridging to xmpp >>>>> and those ingesting a few mailing lists. >>>>> >>>>> We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix >>>>> servers for ietf work outside the main meeting. >>>>> >>>>> If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide >>>>> feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>>>> >>>>> Is providing local jabber accounts and a web interface to jabber >>>>> sufficient? Are there features that matrix or zulip provide that >>>>> are truly helpful for progressing IETF work? If so, please describe >>>>> how they are helping. >>>>> >>>>> To collect more feedback, we are planning to extend the trials >>>>> through IETF 110. Please take advantage of these services between >>>>> now and then (at interim meetings for example) and let us know what >>>>> you find to be effective. >>>>> >>>>> If you are interested in using these services more directly for >>>>> your group's day-to-day communication, and are willing to test one >>>>> or both >>>>> of these services on a primary basis for a while, please coordinate >>>>> with the appropriate leadership and let the tools team know so we can >>>>> help accommodate.  Please consider using these services for ad-hoc, >>>>> design-team meetings, and even interims (again, coordinating with the >>>>> appropriate leadership). >>>>> >>>>> If you have had issues using Jabber in the past, please take some >>>>> time now to work with these new services and describe whether they >>>>> improve your experience. >>>>> >>>>> We need more feedback about these services to develop a sense of >>>>> what will best meet the community's needs going forward. Please >>>>> engage in exploring and discussing them at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>>>> >>>>> While exploring, feel free to use the trial1-feedback room on >>>>> Matrix and the trial1-feedback stream on Zulip. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again to the volunteers that have been helping configure >>>>> these services and keep them going. >>>>> >>>>> Robert Sparks, Tools Team Chair >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce >>>>> mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing >>>>> list Manycouches@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org >> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb >> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at >> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues >> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Tue Dec 15 07:36:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA9A3A11DE for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:36:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.668 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.668 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qKGRNMai1fbF for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (smtp4-g21.free.fr [IPv6:2a01:e0c:1:1599::13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 346E83A11E7 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2a01:e35:2e59:ce10::da3d:a356] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e35:2e59:ce10::da3d:a356]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589A619F522 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:36:05 +0100 (CET) To: tools-discuss References: <04dd1d7d-8ee3-d5c0-d02b-059b007acb63@nostrum.com> <3b673eec-3031-bbc8-6fd7-03f9180cfb0d@nostrum.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <28d2c1d6-6e1e-b788-54e8-8ff75454fd19@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:36:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3b673eec-3031-bbc8-6fd7-03f9180cfb0d@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Fwd: Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:36:11 -0000 Le 14/12/2020 à 20:38, Robert Sparks a écrit : [...] > For convenience: > > https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org, https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org and > https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org Zulip responds when clicked. Matrix and xmpp dont; are they on IPv6? (I am on an IPv6-only computer) Alex > > Those are detailed more thoroughly in the announcements you can re-read at > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-announce/?q="trial chat" > > >> >>> If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide >>> feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >> >> This is a good point.  I wonder whether there can be an automated >> forwarding between lists that have a certain common interest? E.g. when >> I post here with 'tools' in the Subject line it also gets there, and >> vice-versa with 'couches'. > The zulip instance ingests a few mailing lists, but that bridge is not > bi-directional. There are different modes of conversation with email and > chat - the email reflection of chat would look similar to an email > reflection of a jabber room - not a very pleasant way to consume or > participate in the chat. >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> RjS >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject:     Next steps: chat >>> service trials Date:     Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:00:58 -0600 From: Robert >>> Sparks Reply-To:     tools-discuss >>> To:     ietf-announce@ietf.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> We have been running trial zulip, matrix, and xmpp services since >>> October. See >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> As noted in those announcements, the issue that we are trying to >>> address is the difficulty people have been reporting obtaining >>> jabber services and clients. We are hopeful that these trials will >>> help the community develop a better sense of whether to focus on >>> improving the experiences with xmpp or to pursue other chat >>> solutions. We are also open to the possibility that these other >>> solutions may be worth operating in addition to improving the >>> experiences from xmpp. >>> >>> However, usage and feedback so far has not been sufficient to inform >>> what services we should run in the future. >>> >>> We had around 50 local jabber accounts created on >>> xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, and around 40 accounts were created on each of >>> the matrix and zulip services. Few rooms have been created on the >>> matrix service other than those bridging to xmpp. Few streams were >>> created on the zulip service other than those bridging to xmpp and >>> those ingesting a few mailing lists. >>> >>> We are not aware of anyone trying to use the zulip or matrix servers >>> for ietf work outside the main meeting. >>> >>> If you've used the services, please take a few minutes to provide >>> feedback at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>> >>> Is providing local jabber accounts and a web interface to jabber >>> sufficient? Are there features that matrix or zulip provide that are >>> truly helpful for progressing IETF work? If so, please describe how >>> they are helping. >>> >>> To collect more feedback, we are planning to extend the trials >>> through IETF 110. Please take advantage of these services between >>> now and then (at interim meetings for example) and let us know what >>> you find to be effective. >>> >>> If you are interested in using these services more directly for your >>> group's day-to-day communication, and are willing to test one or both >>> of these services on a primary basis for a while, please coordinate >>> with the appropriate leadership and let the tools team know so we can >>> help accommodate.  Please consider using these services for ad-hoc, >>> design-team meetings, and even interims (again, coordinating with the >>> appropriate leadership). >>> >>> If you have had issues using Jabber in the past, please take some >>> time now to work with these new services and describe whether they >>> improve your experience. >>> >>> We need more feedback about these services to develop a sense of >>> what will best meet the community's needs going forward. Please >>> engage in exploring and discussing them at tools-discuss@ietf.org. >>> >>> While exploring, feel free to use the trial1-feedback room on Matrix >>> and the trial1-feedback stream on Zulip. >>> >>> Thanks again to the volunteers that have been helping configure >>> these services and keep them going. >>> >>> Robert Sparks, Tools Team Chair >>> >>> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce >>> mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing >>> list Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Tue Dec 15 14:31:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453023A03FC for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:31:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=eQJfJpd0; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=G+EMQV2T Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VmL8KwVkLCeI for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498F73A03FA for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5842 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2020 22:31:04 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=16cf.5fd93928.k2012; bh=Mai17bRsS6/0/6BeIrYyKXSODX0VSu2JYAmwbHOxYq0=; b=eQJfJpd0HUvG+NvV6tsAxSF1INiG+HC4CBklQ1bklGxjEW/OJ8AkhU/tf32c9ye0WeYMOuUl3JHe3XH33joQ986/X7I7f61JP4xixIAY0el2MGQNkQiVfWM8fbfTLxA4V1ZJpmsJl8yEw9YKk751AdbKGoOea73z+vr6CjS9xRZaWJf8renbsJm0nWWM/UI6bzF275dUDWeB/0WA8PGpX275gGmyRw/QxQbr9Uym1nNQxagJOFBlHT3lVhoL2xQSt4ROaZ2H++RcAvzCMCcWsVCdmabi7WJWKeDDey3tlzgLc/ZyisGH0QZPsXeCc5JGR1u2XE9J7bG9ainHZFQdsQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=16cf.5fd93928.k2012; bh=Mai17bRsS6/0/6BeIrYyKXSODX0VSu2JYAmwbHOxYq0=; b=G+EMQV2T9llsAxMKsODml+dntvO1MnkczGqVb6uC5UVwP3Fz+TiLB9MaJOytjYI79HzO0ajLcYK+lwkzBcLEQnecf9D7Yrx5lF0naXIOHUQtAqHBASSP5A65ZLVdDLRoZvJ1kd6yUCXlDhisU/JrXCc2eEttNNaIrMWZEnYEJIdIsPdoFWxcVbgJB9e9FRlYR4rev6B8G97FG4ri2o8C954j/3C+OKL6+zwZmztS/0M2A3FdwluZmPYMfdbUqfui/QLQL3pFfhV3upYo6WorQpPmunZIAgT4s/VcJvBPMto4Ehv97UdyAYec/y1e/6JGhT2qYnI4dykxgToZ1byfjw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 15 Dec 2020 22:31:04 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0157C29FEA01; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:31:03 -0500 (EST) Date: 15 Dec 2020 17:31:03 -0500 Message-Id: <20201215223104.0157C29FEA01@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <28d2c1d6-6e1e-b788-54e8-8ff75454fd19@gmail.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Fwd: Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 22:31:12 -0000 In article <28d2c1d6-6e1e-b788-54e8-8ff75454fd19@gmail.com> you write: > > >Le 14/12/2020 à 20:38, Robert Sparks a écrit : >[...] > >> For convenience: >> >> https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org, https://matrix-trial1.ietf.org and >> https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org > >Zulip responds when clicked. Matrix and xmpp dont; are they on IPv6? Apparently not. $ telnet matrix-trial1.ietf.org 443 Trying 2001:1900:3001:11::22... telnet: connect to address 2001:1900:3001:11::22: Connection refused Trying 4.31.198.34... Connected to matrix-trial1.ietf.org. $ telnet xmpp-trial1.ietf.org 443 Trying 2001:1900:3001:11::22... telnet: connect to address 2001:1900:3001:11::22: Connection refused Trying 4.31.198.34... Connected to xmpp-trial1.ietf.org. >(I am on an IPv6-only computer) Can we not have this religious argument again, please? R's, John From nobody Tue Dec 15 20:14:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CCE3A0E74 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:14:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pMA9IhA5nChy for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF7683A0E77 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AD3938A061 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.86.10] (173-8-133-94-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.8.133.94]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3893B388330 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20201215223104.0157C29FEA01@ary.qy> From: Glen Organization: AMS Message-ID: <915c82d9-96a8-6f2c-5e2d-347d05870b65@amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:14:10 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201215223104.0157C29FEA01@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] Fwd: Next steps: chat service trials X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 04:14:16 -0000 On 12/15/2020 14:31, John Levine wrote: > In article <28d2c1d6-6e1e-b788-54e8-8ff75454fd19@gmail.com> you write: >> Zulip responds when clicked. Matrix and xmpp dont; are they on IPv6? > Apparently not. > $ telnet matrix-trial1.ietf.org 443 >> (I am on an IPv6-only computer) Hmph. That's disappointing. I've poked this, and made an adjustment which seems to have solved this. The other two trials are now on IPV6 as well. > Can we not have this religious argument again, please? No need (although this made me smile!) This was a... "non-religious problem", and I have fixed it. :-) Glen From nobody Thu Dec 17 15:13:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6B83A083E for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 15:13:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=matrix.org header.b=D14l98YY; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=FmOpamfx Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dalfIMcw6eLB for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 15:13:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75D193A0836 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 15:13:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BF49F0 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 18:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 17 Dec 2020 18:13:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=matrix.org; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=x A69nRAZDUIpo3eE8xM/cO4Urydy1BtNHVfozDL8t+Q=; b=D14l98YYkNkyGPvj4 2mKRYBiLnjidnkho32rr4X5Ut8TVL/tKxPvJXfmnxrd0/nwkdlFlSK2jFauKYSex GXPIdWBCdQXKxDBwXO/sC2F4AJXE76gDa8iDz2svTQ1hV8ZkdALkhZ6EfLwOtnpP cJh7RnOTDVARp4NlHcN+V2+5iyYXcYvg10xjpPgKblkShx7gvlSFEHD/FbTCYW+K tOMqHcvDWOsL0oma+hapWsLVPf6YIDKlb7VzJU2NAAi7+0lNN3UGYfDmnFWSY91n +1lrdb+iYNDQCmpxxmO7F9myssoANbgvujW2NKHkMaFmVG+bL5pbdi/XX0atyo5c JRXmw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=xA69nRAZDUIpo3eE8xM/cO4Urydy1BtNHVfozDL8t +Q=; b=FmOpamfxam5Bs8xD1+gZW6Jps7/hzOgDDoCWQacDhEBzG4n6ioGRXWbF1 yvljixEdm/BGcEU2xWw8PL9o9031cR929hckYugKnSrQl8Jn4iybNAtbCZWvXN91 fItK2mOAlK+hGrXth0NeKGmiBqc3nfGA72EDsteMHu29DsTzWx3zkWTbfkazuH3i DIJOANony7+ZzJ9j/oxddatzvpUbgA46nunLORLu+dFgY3KJo3FmI2B070jYFh5a cmtZ6nXMqUnM8nSGR1j0Hv2eCwc5tVb1Hpht3e2h7N8EkK6DVI1hzZ9x4zbHBXN8 Vfv8AZgew5WDISdd6DyhQvKOuYezA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrudelhedgtdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhfhokffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrthhthhgvficujfhoughgshhonhcuoehmrghtthhh vgifsehmrghtrhhigidrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeeghfduvdevtedtke dufedvuedvgffhueffjeevgeeltdffueettdfgieetleegnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihht hhhusgdrtghomhdpmhgrthhrihigrdhorhhgnecukfhppeekvddrgedtrdelfedrfeenuc evlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmrghtthhh vgifsehmrghtrhhigidrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from bucephalus-2.local (cpc152095-haye27-2-0-cust2.17-4.cable.virginm.net [82.40.93.3]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9669F108005F for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 18:13:03 -0500 (EST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <15081.1607893032@localhost> From: Matthew Hodgson Organization: The Matrix.org Foundation C.I.C Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 23:13:02 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:84.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/84.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] matrix tests X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 23:13:08 -0000 Better late than never I can try to provide more clarity on Matrix's data processing/retention semantics - please see comments below... On 13/12/2020 23:02, Glen wrote: > Stephen Farrell wrote: >> It didn't occur to me to create any matrix rooms. If it had, I'm not >> sure if that'd have been useful but I can imagine it being so in >> future, e.g. for a bar bof. Before that'd be a standard procedure I'd >> like to understand the duration for which any such rooms might last, >> how closed/open they may be etc. > > I can actually report some technical data on that. > > As I was performing server maintenance over the past few days, I > discovered that the Matrix database was taking up a significant amount > of space (91 GB for 37 local users.). There are several reasons for this:  * The server has been provisioned using sqlite rather than postgres as the DB.  Sqlite is meant to be just for evaluation, not for production, and I dread to think how fragmented or unoptimised a 91GB sqlite DB has got :)  * Synapse's schema is currently quite naive on how it snapshots the state of its chatrooms.  It currently takes a snapshot every 100 state changes (where state changes are things like room membership changes; not normal messages).  Thus a room with 10,000 members causes another 10,000 db rows to be inserted every 100 joins or parts.  This is obviously terrible; there's a workaround to apply a better compression algorithm via https://github.com/matrix-org/rust-synapse-compress-state, which needs to be merged into Synapse proper.  * As you've pointed out, Matrix works by replicating conversations between servers.  So even if you have 1 user, if they go nuts and try to join 1,000 busy rooms with huge numbers of participants, they can suck up a lot of disk space.  Conversely, if you have 1,000 users and they are all in tiny rooms, the opposite could be true.  Matrix is more like hosting an IMAP server than (say) an SMTP or XMPP server in this respective.  * You can configure the server to have limited the data it stores for the rooms its users are in, and I assume this hasn't been configured: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/44b7d4c6d6d5e8d78bd0154b407defea4a35aebd/docs/sample_config.yaml#L410-L421. > I put in an inquiry but didn't find anyone online (likely people are > offline for the weekend) so I did some digging myself. Sorry - I think our messages crossed while you were writing the original mail :) > Unlike Jabber, where a room is hosted on a single server; in Matrix, > it turns out that every room that anyone belongs to is co-hosted on > every server used by any of that room's users. [1] Even if all (local) > users leave the room, the room remains on the server, along with all > of the shared data. This isn't strictly true.  If all local users leave the room, and "forget" it (equivalent to expunging an IMAP folder - it's an option after you leave a room in the 'Historical' section in Element), then the data is free to be garbage collected. > Moreover, if I understand what the developers explained to me, it is > not possible to delete a room "everywhere".  I can delete a room that > exists on the local server, but that does not delete the room from > other servers to which the room was shared. In theory you could request other servers delete the room and hope they honour the request.  However, i'm not sure that I'd like some random admin/moderator/user on a remote server to decide to reach in and destroy my copy of a room on my server - so we haven't implemented it yet. > And if our server somehow became disconnected from the rest, all of > the rooms that had been shared out to other servers would continue to > exist on those other servers forever as orphaned clones (for, as we > like to say, some value of "forever"), outside of our ability to > control (or perhaps even enumerate.) They wouldn't really be "orphaned clones", any more than a local git repository clone is an "orphaned clone" of whatever you cloned it from.  To be orphaned implies you once had parents.  In Matrix, the rooms are shared over their participating servers, and all servers are equal in that respect. > So unlike operating a Jabber server, where the conference server is > the "authoritative" location of the room (and logs are captured > there), and, it turns out, unlike operating a Zulip server (which also > has an authoritative location).... operating a Matrix server isn't > really "operating" a server so much as "joining a huge network of peer > servers." Yup, precisely. It's the same difference between using SVN and using Git.  Most people consider the lack of authoritive server to be an extremely desirable feature - it means that if I join IETF rooms from my personal server, I have full sovereignty over my copy of the conversation, even if my 'net connection goes down, or even if something terrible happened to the IETF server, etc.  I have network partition tolerance. > As the IETF's operator, I do not set policy, so this is just my > opinion... but I *think* that having our Matrix server mirroring some > of the rooms in my list above seems... problematic. I would expect this to be no worse than (say) running a caching HTTP proxy for users.  If your users choose to go view weird stuff out there on Matrix, then your server ends up with a local cache of that data until it expires. However, if you wanted to limit the servers your server can federate with, that's possible too (but not very idiomatic - just as it wouldn't be idiomatic to specify a whitelist or blocklist of email servers to talk SMTP with): https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/44b7d4c6d6d5e8d78bd0154b407defea4a35aebd/docs/sample_config.yaml#L673-L695 > If it turns out that this is the behavior desired by the IETF, then no > changes are needed. If, however, the IETF wants to operate the Matrix > server in a more-or-less authoritative, "Note Well"-compliant kind of > way, then I *think* the Matrix server would need to be deployed with > federation disabled (meaning, local user signups only, and no room > sharing across the world), and public room sharing disabled as well.  > We can certainly do this, but we have not tested that kind of setup yet. You could do this, but it would very much miss the fundamental nature of Matrix - the equivalent of realising that because an internet-connected LAN could be used by its users to access unexpected content on the internet, one should isolate it from the internet.  I think this might be counter to the IETF's aethos :) In terms of being authoritative in a Note Well kind-of way, it's worth noting that the replicated copies of rooms which other servers maintain are cryptographically signed to match each other.  So from a logical perspective, they do not diverge (other than during a netsplit). > But unless they make that choice, then the answer to Stephen's > questions seem to be: > > > the duration for which any such rooms might last, > > "forever", with no option to delete/close unless federation is > disabled, and This is not correct. The server admin can boot rooms off the server, or specify a retention policy, or the room admin can specify a retention policy.  If all users have left and forgotten the room, the server could garbage collect it (if desired, although this hasn't landed in Synapse yet). Federation has no impact on the ability to delete/close a room. > how closed/open they may be etc. > "wide open to every Matrix server of every participating user." This is not necessarily true: if data privacy is a concern, you can enable end-to-end encryption on the room, and then the data is not visible to *any* server - just the authorised participating users' devices. Aside from end-to-end encryption, Matrix rooms also impose decentralised ACLs to limit which users and servers can see the history based on the room admin's requirements; it turns out this is a novel area of computer science: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/16/matrix-decomposition-an-independent-academic-analysis-of-matrix-state-resolution. So while it's true that the new messages in an unencrypted room is wide open and visible to all servers which have users currently participating in that room, it is not true to say that past history is visible (unless explicitly shared), and future messages are not replicated after a server's users leave. Hope this provides some clarity.  Apologies that the mental process of familiarisation with Matrix is a paradigm shift similar to going from a VCS to a DVCS, but when it clicks, much like a DVCS, its characteristics hopefully feel desirable rather than unexpected and weird. thanks, Matthew -- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org From nobody Wed Dec 23 12:11:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79CEB3A09E0 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 12:11:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sHL2ZIFuD0Qz for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 12:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-f48.google.com (mail-qv1-f48.google.com [209.85.219.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13D093A09D6 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 12:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-f48.google.com with SMTP id bd6so317312qvb.9 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 12:11:43 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=ygfhL+65j+4qEFVbFm+keI+OShnzDhH5l+czMQ/uChI=; b=WkhYclvekHqm2xDH2bXqLHJzZUku2qLnJQ1r0D7IMtMzdgsEJRnaCJf4EkD5OmVc1t wCM/x1eCEMRHhWUiLv2ZZSfVrF+maJA6QjFcObci+DKYjbIG6dFP0oe2udgkNgmhYcSF ljeLTWu5dpXqyw7p26MZrigKru1E4cHY3eVklrjQlDz2zWI3uaXbVwC0NsMJG3y6zDBB AJQKfUSuHxVOtUTMsh7mUKXUrnKN6FFxsjn2nWFhnRKh32MT9Bur52x5YtB4OrmvLXfH WElyzkfPa6VcNxsQ7Xs6oTPiL4xNVhHhSIEywbrcY/KwvJ06e8gn1Dnm1uWKJIRZJHMW nrnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530xINBjiqjOt7MaeSyNICykzWgKLs/Y6blmwbJ48Yq99+FvlIUp Hug93NwQpuXv1ovXYUjf5wWBju9/1/t/hQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKV3bHS5V+xN7T9DXprc5ClfpFIX4qbFjZuIHa4wmXSKZXf3IwS1FklZzxOnCzRbzaIf5ptA== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c583:: with SMTP id a3mr28285687qvj.15.1608754302035; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 12:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.45.128] (g2001-4878-8037-0100-0000-0000-0000-0109.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com. [2001:4878:8037:100::109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i27sm10619033qkk.15.2020.12.23.12.11.41 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Dec 2020 12:11:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Tim April" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 15:11:40 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5676) Message-ID: <957DBF5D-FC38-4E73-93A4-AEE93CF012AB@tapril.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_CBE7D70B-C482-4126-B71B-2D66CA9D8300_=" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Zulip Trial & the IETF X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 20:11:47 -0000 --=_MailMate_CBE7D70B-C482-4126-B71B-2D66CA9D8300_= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello IETFers. As the chat system trials continue, I figured I would add = my thoughts on how the Zulip service might fit into existing IETF work = flows. If there are any comments / questions / suggestions about zulip = or the text below, please let me know. (I have also posted this text to = the Zulip trial server = [here](https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org/#narrow/stream/19-trial1-feedback/to= pic/Zulip.20Trial.20.26.20the.20IETF/near/15457)) Thanks, --tim ## Overview of Zulip First, if you're new to Zulip, I would recommend reading the [Getting = Started with Zulip (~300 = words)](https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org/help/getting-started-with-zulip) = documentation found on the Zulip trail server. This is a quick intro = written by the Zulip developers and some of its users. I would also = suggest going a little deeper into the documentation, specifically = reading about [Streams and Topics (~300 = words)](https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org/help/about-streams-and-topics), = which covers the Zulip conversation model. The most important difference, in my opinion, between Zulip and most of = the other popular chat systems is their conversation model. With most = systems, like Slack, Matrix or even XMPP, conversations are separated = into channels, rooms or chat rooms respectively. For some of the newer = chat systems, threads have been added to conversations as an after = thought, but in Zulip, threading was an initial design feature so the = system was built to support threading, in a similar way to email. Zulip started out as a web based re-implementation of = [Zephyr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zephyr_(protocol)) to allow = better separation topics within a conversation, very similar to how = there are threads within a mailing list. As Zulip has grown over the years since it was introduced, the threading = model has remained nearly the same, and in the 6 years I have been an = active user, I have found that it helps quite a bit with focusing on the = topics I need to focus on while letting me go back and review other = conversations as I have time. ## Proposed use of Topics Since the new chat system trials have started, I have spent some time = thinking about how the IETF might make use of Zulip if it were to be = selected as the replacement for XMPP. Below are my thoughts on how = conversations might happen in the tool. It is important to note that the = way conversations happen in Zulip tend to drift towards a set of roughly = agreed on norms rather than any hard and fast rules. ### Working Group Use For each working group, I would think that it would start out with two = Zulip streams, one would be for the mailing list mirror and the other = would be for other discussions like what exists in XMPP right now. For the mail mirror, I would imagine that this stream would be set up to = receive messages from each of their respective mailings lists. As an = example, in the trial system, the stream named "list:dnsop" receives any = messages to dnsop@ietf.org. Additionally, another stream would be setup for discussion within a = working group which might just be the working group name like "dnsop". = In the working group stream, conversations about current work could take = place with its own topic in the stream for each piece of work. In addition to using public streams, a private stream could be employed = to allow working group chairs to communicate with each other. Depending = on their work flows, the working group chairs may wish to have their = mailing list(s) copied directly into Zulip, or to just use the system as = a chat replacement. It is also worth noting that additional streams could be used to further = separate some work items, such as focused work on a particular draft. In = the case where a draft has its own stream, there might be different = topics for each work item that is open for the draft. If the draft is = using GitHub, there might be a conversation in the stream for each of = the GitHub issues to better separate each of the conversations. Speaking of GitHub, Zulip does have an extensive set of = [integrations](https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org/integrations/), including = GitHub which can send all sorts of events directly into Zulip as changes = happen to the repository. ### Non Working Group Lists Like working group use, non-working group lists can have similar = integrations using the "list:" prefix for the email mirror and then a = separate stream for chat based discussions. ## Archiving One concern that might come up is archiving messages sent to Zulip, = similar to how all email messages are archived. There is a = [zulip-archive](https://github.com/zulip/zulip-archive) tool maintained = by the Zulip developers which can export all messages in public streams = to a HTML format for archiving. Other alterations to this tool could be = made to archive directly into the mail archive maintained by the tools = team if it would seem valuable. --=_MailMate_CBE7D70B-C482-4126-B71B-2D66CA9D8300_= Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello IETFers. As the chat system trials continue, I figu= red I would add my thoughts on how the Zulip service might fit into exist= ing IETF work flows. If there are any comments / questions / suggestions = about zulip or the text below, please let me know. (I have also posted th= is text to the Zulip trial server here)

Thanks,

--tim

Overview of Zulip

First, if you're new to Zulip, I would recommend reading = the Getting Started with Zulip (~300 words) = documentation found on the Zulip trail server. This is a quick intro writ= ten by the Zulip developers and some of its users. I would also suggest g= oing a little deeper into the documentation, specifically reading about <= a href=3D"https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org/help/about-streams-and-topics" st= yle=3D"color:#3983C4">Streams and Topics (~300 words), which covers t= he Zulip conversation model.

The most important difference, in my opinion, between Zul= ip and most of the other popular chat systems is their conversation model= =2E With most systems, like Slack, Matrix or even XMPP, conversations are= separated into channels, rooms or chat rooms respectively. For some of t= he newer chat systems, threads have been added to conversations as an aft= er thought, but in Zulip, threading was an initial design feature so the = system was built to support threading, in a similar way to email.

Zulip started out as a web based re-implementation of Zephyr) to allow better separation topics within a conversatio= n, very similar to how there are threads within a mailing list.

As Zulip has grown over the years since it was introduced= , the threading model has remained nearly the same, and in the 6 years I = have been an active user, I have found that it helps quite a bit with foc= using on the topics I need to focus on while letting me go back and revie= w other conversations as I have time.

Proposed use of Topics

Since the new chat system trials have started, I have spe= nt some time thinking about how the IETF might make use of Zulip if it we= re to be selected as the replacement for XMPP. Below are my thoughts on h= ow conversations might happen in the tool. It is important to note that t= he way conversations happen in Zulip tend to drift towards a set of rough= ly agreed on norms rather than any hard and fast rules.

Working Group Use

For each working group, I would think that it would start= out with two Zulip streams, one would be for the mailing list mirror and= the other would be for other discussions like what exists in XMPP right = now.

For the mail mirror, I would imagine that this stream wou= ld be set up to receive messages from each of their respective mailings l= ists. As an example, in the trial system, the stream named "list:dnsop" r= eceives any messages to dnsop@ietf.org.

Additionally, another stream would be setup for discussio= n within a working group which might just be the working group name like = "dnsop". In the working group stream, conversations about current work co= uld take place with its own topic in the stream for each piece of work.

In addition to using public streams, a private stream cou= ld be employed to allow working group chairs to communicate with each oth= er. Depending on their work flows, the working group chairs may wish to h= ave their mailing list(s) copied directly into Zulip, or to just use the = system as a chat replacement.

It is also worth noting that additional streams could be = used to further separate some work items, such as focused work on a parti= cular draft. In the case where a draft has its own stream, there might be= different topics for each work item that is open for the draft. If the d= raft is using GitHub, there might be a conversation in the stream for eac= h of the GitHub issues to better separate each of the conversations.

Speaking of GitHub, Zulip does have an extensive set of <= a href=3D"https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org/integrations/" style=3D"color:#39= 83C4">integrations, including GitHub which can send all sorts of even= ts directly into Zulip as changes happen to the repository.

Non Working Group Lists

Like working group use, non-working group lists can have = similar integrations using the "list:" prefix for the email mirror and th= en a separate stream for chat based discussions.

Archiving

One concern that might come up is archiving messages sent= to Zulip, similar to how all email messages are archived. There is a z= ulip-archive tool maintained by the Zulip developers which can export= all messages in public streams to a HTML format for archiving. Other alt= erations to this tool could be made to archive directly into the mail arc= hive maintained by the tools team if it would seem valuable.

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